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Boxes in Boxes and Pages in Pages[edit]

Hello everyone, I'm here to shake-up the current version of the Wiki which I find extremely frustrating, hard to use and especially a pain in the ass to edit due to the "rules" that you have here. There were multiple threads on Reddit regarding Wiki and a lot of complaints came from the fact that information is not easy to find and it requires multiple clicks.

One of the main issues that I personally have with our wiki is the fact that I am required to click and click in order to get to what I'm interested instead of having the relevant information directly available instead of having it on different pages for "archiving purposes".

It's been a while since I've edited anything on a wiki, so bear with me.

Things that need to change:

Containers such as reward boxes should have all the contents listed and if any armor / skins are available, have them directly displayed on the page of the main box. Every other box can be displayed in a tree structure but the main rewards should be directly available.
Collection items should have the means of acquisition directly on the page. No more pages to click just because one is an item and the other one is an item of the collection. That's pointless. If a user wants to find a collection item he should be able to do so with a simple /wiki and no other clicks.
Skin / Armor codes are useless outside of the game on a wiki page. If a page has codes but doesn't have images, images should be added next to the codes.
Improvements to "galleries". Larger images, set location for screenshots, etc.

tl;dr, no more pages in pages. Markus Clouser User Markus Clouser signature img.jpg 10:37, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Could you perhaps give examples of what you're describing so we can better see the changes you are asking for? E.g. you ask for reward boxes to have all their contents listed, yet I believe we strive to do exactly that. A bit more clarity would help me pin down what you're unhappy with, and what adjustments you're hoping to see happen. G R E E N E R 16:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Happy you asked. I will be making a list here of all the pages that I have issues with. I will keep on adding but I can assure you that I will NOT be making any edits to any of the pages.
Let's begin:
* https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Armor_Box - No gallery for armor.
Markus Clouser User Markus Clouser signature img.jpg 00:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
We don’t usually have galleries on container pages like that(would blow the page up I think is why), but links to the armor overview pages where the galleries can be found wouldn’t be a bad idea and could be added. - Doodleplex 00:30, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
I added links to the top of the page. G R E E N E R 03:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Part of the problem here is people's lack of inclination to upload gallery images themselves. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 07:45, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Regarding what Markus Clouser said initially: I think it's true that this wiki currently has a bit of an issue with item data split up over too many pages. I'm not saying this is "wrong" or overly complex per se (I mean "Boxes in Boxes" is not a wiki issue; it's the game's issue), but I can acknowledge that other users might find the wiki confusing. One long term solution would be to add mouseover/hover tooltips to item links that show the item's stats, and maybe a gallery image, at a glance. I guess this "solution" has been discussed previously, and I doubt it plays well with MediaWiki, but I just thought I'd mention it. --Blackice (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Update: Just noticed that the tooltip framework qTip2 is currently used on this wiki as part of the Semantic MediaWiki extension. Example:
I'm a fancy tooltip! Mini Maraca Choya Pinata.png
. Seems like setting up item tooltips would only require a bit JavaScript. --Blackice (talk) 20:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Further reaching out to the GW2 community[edit]

Hi folks, an idea has been rolling through my mind for nearly a year now, and I admit it's my mistake for not bringing it up earlier. I've been hesitant because I know it may be a sensitive topic, but that shouldn't mean we avoid it.

The Guild Wars 2 community at large is vast and varied, and the wiki constitutes just a portion of what's out there. We have focused on providing players with useful information in text or picture form as that's the medium we have at our disposal. We know though that some information just cannot be captured by words or single images, and that's the subject I would like to bring up now.

Previously, there was a small discussion around a "Life in Tyria" video featuring devourers on the devourer page. I had mentioned that I'd be interested in seeing this expanded, but I did not push the topic further as the discussion garnered little interest. After seeing this video showcasing Auric Basin, I'd like to open the discussion again in a more open forum. Mainly, how do we feel about including high quality overviews of topics which add to the information the wiki is trying to provide? Obviously judging such things is subjective and prone to disagreements, but would we be willing to consider such additions at all?

Do feel free free to express your thoughts, and I fully admit that I'm not sure where I stand on this topic. I've learned though that this community has a habit of taking a small idea and refining it in surprising ways. G R E E N E R 00:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Part of me worries about this being a slippery slope -- I've seen trivia sections on other wikis get bloated with cringy crap because people kept adding dubious links that only made sense in their own minds -- but in fairness, I don't think I've ever really seen "external videos" sections suffer the same fate, and our trivia sections are pretty clean compared to some other wikis anyway. So, as long as we're clear and open about what sort of content we're okay with adding, I'm not against this idea. --Idris (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't think the discussion is about what we put in the trivia section. Most of the time, that tells me the video serves no purpose for the article.
Videos of panorma shots of areas over in-game would be super easy to add to articles. There aren't any roadblocks for adding that kind of content to the wiki. Most of discussion related to videos was for jumping puzzles, and I feel that we overcompensated at this point with settling for general Youtube links and that sets the precedent for the rest of the content.
Video guides and walkthroughs are much harder to sell on the wiki and I don't think we will provide a place to have those ultimately leave creative control to the creator. Those are hot spots for bikeshedding and requiring additional moderation that we either can't or shouldn't handle. Other sites like the forums, guild websites, Youtube, or Dulfy do a much better job and I haven't seen that situation change in the years the wiki has been up.
Stuff that is on the table to me would be panorama shots, in-game dialogue audio and/or video, animations, in-game cutscenes, and other content that doesn't require an authorative or personal view to present.--Relyk ~ talk < 04:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
"I don't think the discussion is about what we put in the trivia section. Most of the time, that tells me the video serves no purpose for the article." -- To clarify, I didn't think we were talking about the trivia section; I was drawing a parallel to it because, like external videos, trivia tends to be quite subjective, and sometimes people will add things like "this NPC said "I'll be back", which is a reference to The Terminator <link to imdb page for the Terminator> <link to youtube clip of that scene from Terminator> Also, the NPC is muscley like Arnold Schwarzenegger. <link to Arnold's Wikipedia article>" -- but it'll turn out that the NPC was just some norn announcing that he was going out to market and there's no intended reference whatsoever. But because that dubious trivia was added to the page, other editors would feel emboldened to add dubious references their own favourite canons or memes. Like I said though, I don't feel like there's a huge risk of that sort of thing happening in this case. --Idris (talk) 11:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
My main concern with adding videos is that videos are hard to maintain. They're tougher to make quality videos compared to text or images, so the bar is higher for entry which feels counter-intuitive to the wiki's purpose. If the content the video is representing changes, the video is less relevant and would need updating, and that could easily mean making a whole new video. There's also the matter of the quality control itself, similar to what Idris brings up - making sure those videos added actually are accurate and of good quality to reflect the wiki. And there's a risk of "picking favorites" among editors - some may view Video A of Content X to be a better quality than Video B of Content X, but other editors think the reverse or even Video C is better - what would be done then? Link just one (how to choose?) or link them all (where does it end? the 10th video?). That last bit is why we made {{youtube}} and I rather prefer that over the hassle of the rest. Konig (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Achievement blow up[edit]

So I don't have an issue adding related achievements to pages where applicable, but I do have an issue when it starts to blow up the pages to nearly double the size due to the {{tl|achievement}} template being used, and on mobile devices, the template doesn't even work right at all and just breaks(which is probably fixable on the template I imagine). I was wondering if perhaps we could avoid using that oversized template on things other than the acquisition section on item pages and story page's achievements and perhaps just do a text link instead which would leave space for a short explanation or maybe add a "related achievement" section in infoboxes. Not to mention, a giant box doesn't really provide much help when the link to said achievement can be a tad obscure, I've come across a few things where I was honestly confused as to why there was an achievement template there and had to dig around, which isn't particularly helpful for your average user to have to do. - Doodleplex 21:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I like the amount of information a full template box provides compared to a simple link, but if it's causing bloat and display issues then yeah, we should probably swap it out for something else. My screen is small enough that wide templates like that one tend to create a lot of whitespace, which I'm not a fan of. Maybe we should redesign the template to be more compact? --Idris (talk) 21:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@Doodle, can you give us some examples of where you feel its currently taking too much space, and tell us what type of device - can you take a screenshot? Help us find out what's broken and we can assess what can be done. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 21:26, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Alex, if I knew how to take screenshots on my phone I would, I honestly don't have a clue because the darn thing has a mind of it's own. =< Basically it either hits the side of the page and the table sort of looks like the ending column of tiers and such is all mushed together or it just gets cut off and I can't make the page scroll sideways. (Additionally Template:Bags nav is even worse, it covers the side navigation completely and goes off page on the other end.) 5 Bauble is the only thing I can think of where it's taking up a lot of space, it went from being a page that didn't even have a scroll bar to where all of the related achievements is half of the page's size.
Idris, it wouldn't be a single link, it would be more like maybe :'''[[Link to achievement page/achievement category pate|<achievement name>]]''' - <brief explanation>". So if there was an achievement involved feeding a muffin to a moose, on the moose page it could be :'''[[Community#If you give a Moose a Muffin...|If you give a Moose a Muffin...]]''' - Feeding any moose one muffin. Gives the name of the achievement, goes to achievement category page, gives brief info on why the moose is involved. - Doodleplex 21:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I dunno. A lot of walkthroughs for achievements show up on the articles for related events/objects/etc because the achievement is too complicated for a note on the category page, but too straightforward for a dedicated article. I'm not keen on removing easily identifiable markers on such pages that say "This is what you're looking for! Achievement walkthrough here!". Yeah, that's the TOC and header's job, but people still tend to scroll blindly anyway. --Idris (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Achievement template was meant primarily for achievements that had specific pages since the objects are stored at the achievement category. The template is overkill for most other places where you don't need to dump all the information. We never identified a succinct version for general use. It's particularly distracting on acquisition sections for items, world boss pages, and some other places.--Relyk ~ talk < 07:01, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
That's why I suggested a compact redesign, or a new template that's specifically intended for Related Achievements sections. --Idris (talk) 15:40, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Well if we want to start with a few examples of the current layout, both good and bad.
  • A Family Heirloom - an achievement guide page. Probably the original intention of the template. Good.
  • Pylon Attunement: Blue - a short page, the box tells us there's an achievement associated. Seems okay.
  • Time Trial - Width of descriptions misaligns everything. Ugly.
  • Bounty#Related achievements - Quite a lot of them. Could be combined or linked as a bulleted list to the achievement pages? Borderline bad.
  • Sniper Volley - a skill page for an object. I would only expect to find this template on the related event page. Bad.
  • Plush Armchair - a decoration page. Imo the achievement template is out of place here. Bad.
-Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 18:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Out of what the template currently shows, the only important things I think would be needed/would want to know about in regards to an achievement are the name of the achievement, the category it's in, and whatever the reward is(if applicable); I wouldn't add the description because often those are fairly vague and don't really help. Perhaps for effects, the infobox could have an achievement parameter since there are a decent number of effects that track achievements. As for what the new template would be, not entirely sure, it sounds like we need two new templates not one, i.e. one for item acquisition(since that gets bulky fast for some stuff) and another for related achievements for just about everything else. - Doodleplex 21:55, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
So after messing around a bit, I think the Effect infobox should get rid of the "story chapter" part(it doesn't seem to work anyway), add in an optional achievement parameter to go to a walkthrough for an achievement/the achievement's page if it exists, and leave the instance part as is mostly but tweak it to go to the achievement section of a story instance(done by [[{{{story}}}#Achievements|{{{story}}}]]). My thinking is nearly all achievement related effects are linked to story instances, and the only one I could think of that isn't is Key Hoarder which is part of Open Skies: Sunspear Wisdom, and those tweaks would cover both things. This way people would pretty much go directly to a page using the achievement template in the way it was meant to be used and get a lot a information about the achievement instead of being a bloated box that may not be very clear on an otherwise tiny effect page. - Doodleplex 16:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
(putting in the same indentation because continuing the above, just at a later time) Also, I have an idea for something I've been trying to get figured out for a while now and might have the answer. What if for item acquisition, instead of using the achievement template, we have something similar to how the "Dropped by" template, except it would be called "Rewarded by" and only list what source that rewards the item and the source type. It would list anything that rewards an item, which would cover pretty much nearly everything that we've had to write in manually, aka: dungeons, story rewards, activities, adventures, and events as well as achievements. So something like this:
Source Source Type
Kill the megadestroyer before it blows everyone up Dynamic event
Setting the Stage Personal story
Honor of the Waves Dungeon
Lion's Arch Exterminator Achievement
On Wings of Gold Adventure
Southsun Survival Activity
Also it would collapsible like the Drops table is, preventing an item like the from bloating up pages. Additionally, "Template:Rewards" isn't being used and would fit nicely for what would populate the "Rewarded by" template. As for the how, well, pretty much the same as the "Dropped by" template except perhaps use the property "Gives item" which already exists and make a new page property called "Has source type" or something for the second column. If it's not too much a hassle, maybe do the same thing as the vendor list having historical NPCs grayed out except grayed out for things that are historical like some achievements and such, but that's not really a must have imo. - Doodleplex 23:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think that achievements on NPC/Object/Item pages should just be a section called "Achievement involvement" and either use a template similar to the {{event}} or {{heart}} templates(maybe called {{tl|achieves}} or something and goes to either the achievement's guide page or achievement category page perhaps?) or a text link(whichever is easier). Consistent, clean, and wouldn't cause mayhem. - Doodleplex 23:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
That's a pretty good idea, actually. --Idris (talk) 23:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Glad to hear. Would you mind if I used my bot to at least change everything on NPC and object pages into a text link until either somebody makes a template or we all just get used to using the text setup? The rest I'll try to do when I have proper computer access and not just limited borrowing of computers(and when I'm not still kinda sick). - Doodleplex 22:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
The proposed template sounds pretty straightforward, so would you mind if I mocked one up first? Then we can just directly use the new template instead of having to do two sets of mass edits. --Idris (talk) 22:28, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Be my guest. And if you could do the rest, I'd be grateful. I really, really, really hate not having reliable computer access. =< - Doodleplex 22:30, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
You can already do source type for page properties related to items if they have a context type. That's the whole point of describing the property on the page that is the source of the item. Properties like "Gives item" and "Dropped by" aren't very good names unfortunately because those are generic enough to apply to multiple source methods. If semantic properties actually worked with subtypes, we'd be subtyping all those properties as Property:Has item source.--Relyk ~ talk < 05:34, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Finished mocking up the proposed template on my sandbox (Edit: Now has its own page on {{achiev}}). I don't have much experience with SMW-heavy templates so this needs polishing, but the basic idea is:

Justice of the Blade.png Justice of the Blade: Informed PoliticsInvestigate posters in Kryta's towns and villages to stay up to date on public opinion. (11Achievement pointsSatchel of Poster-Making Supplies)
Justice of the Blade.png Justice of the Blade: Bounty HunterComplete 3 daily bounty orders from the Shining Blade. (5Achievement pointsRepeatable (AP is capped at 30)Shining Blade War Supplies)

What do we think? --Idris (talk) 06:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd put icon tags before prose like the description so icons don't get wrapped to next line or something. You can add a fixed indent of the like 4 spaces to fill in applicable icons.--Relyk ~ talk < 06:08, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Hm, I can't really get them to look good when I clump them all together at the start. The trouble with adding whitespace to make them align nicely is that there's a number thrown in there in a variable-width font, so they're pretty much always going to be misaligned unless we use a dorky fixed-width font. I don't think achiev descriptions are usually long enough that they'd be likely to spill onto another line, anyway; and sticking the AP at the end helps it resemble the format we already use for {{heart}} and {{event}}. --Idris (talk) 06:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I like it. Nice, simple clean, gives all the information without being over sized. - Doodleplex 22:25, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Update on achievement templates[edit]

So we've had some discussion on the wiki Discord:

  • The old "Template:Achievement" has been moved to "Template:Achievement box" -- this is the one that provides a box with information on one achievement.
  • "Template:Achievement box" now uses only the "name" and "category" parameters -- parameters 1 and 2 were combined with name and category as part of the bot cleanup.
  • The new "Template:Achieve" has been moved to "Template:Achievement" -- this is the one that is to be used in a bulleted list and provides information on one achievement.
  • The new template has two parameters "1" (unnamed) and "category".

Kinda related:

  • "Template:Achievement infobox" has been entirely replaced with "Template:Achievement box" -- it wasn't used much and presents the same information.
  • "Template:Achievement list" has been removed where it was only used to return one achievement with the "reward" parameter with "Template:Achievement box"

You are now all free to change any "achievement box" usage to "achievement". -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 10:19, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for doing all this clean-up work! My suggestions for where we should use "Template:Achievement" (bullet) vs "Template:Achievement box" (box):
  • Related achievements sections on NPC/object/item/event etc articles should obviously use the bullet variant, since that was the original goal for this new design. We can possibly move that section further up the page now that it doesn't take up so much space.
  • Achievement sections in story/fractal/raid walkthroughs could use the bullet variant, since they're very prone to bloat as it is. Edit: This looks terrible though.
  • Articles whose focus is an achievement (eg, Speedy Reader) should use the box.
  • I'm not sure how to handle acquisition sections on item articles. I'm leaning towards bullet since we don't put huge amount of information in there for other types of sources box because it doesn't seem to bloat those types of articles. The only problem is for items granted by multiple achievements, in which case {{achievement list}} is the best option, but afaik there are so few cases like this (if any?) we don't really need to rely on SMW or worry about long lists of boxes.
--Idris (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether we should dumb down {{achievement list}} so that it doesn't calculate the total AP at the top. This would reduce the size of those tables. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 11:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
God yes, I've always hated that enormous header. --Idris (talk) 11:16, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
For NPC/Object/Item pages, I'd rather it be "Achievement involvement" for consistency. For Story stuff/dungeons/achievement pages I'd rather leave the box as is. For effects, I'd much rather use the infobox itself since that was already half set up to start with. - Doodleplex 14:42, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
"Achievement involvement" could end up being less consistent in the long run, because we have quite a wide variety of articles that have "Related achievements" sections but never have "Heart/Event involvement" sections -- adventures, events, other achievements, etc, which Alex pointed out on discord are probably better off with having "Related achievements" down near the bottom of the page, like a sort of specialized "See also". If we're going to use that approach for some pages, I'd rather we used it for all of them. --Idris (talk) 03:56, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Just wanted to chime in too and thank everyone involved for the discussion and change. :) The more simplified Related Achievements listing will be useful for NPC pages in particular (see e.g. Taimi who has quite a few achievements linked to her), and I'll go ahead and start updating the achievement sections on the relevant NPC pages that I come across. I tried to glance at Discord conversations but couldn't find whether a decision was made to place Related Achievements between the Notes and Trivia sections on NPC pages from now on or keep them between Drops and Notes sections as the "NPC formatting" page currently suggests. Any update on the matter? --Kossage (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
The current consensus seems to lean towards treating achievements sections as a specialized "See also" and placing it immediately above the see also section. (The formatting guides haven't been updated yet; they were designed with the big space-filling boxes in mind.) Someone will probably use a bot at some point to switch achievement boxes to the new template en masse, and the exact positioning of the sections can be sorted out then,(Edit: I'm a jerk who doesn't understand bots) so go ahead and start making changes if you like. :) —Idris User Idris signature.png 16:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Hyphens in time adjectives[edit]

I don't know where else to ask this. Is it preferred to say something like "10 minute event" or "10-minute event"? It seems from my (quick) searching there should be a dash or hyphen in the amount, but since most people don't do it, what's the convention here (new to wiki)? Does anyone care if I go and change these? --Notme (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's what our general formatting guide has to say. As you can see, it doesn't really address your question; I think on the whole we don't really care so much about cases like this. If you're editing a page for some other reason and happen to spot a missing hyphen, then fix away, but I don't think it's worth flooding the recent changes with a hundred "(+1 byte) added a hyphen" edits for. --Idris (talk) 22:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
the dash looks really weird to me, I'm not sure its worth changing tbh. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 17:55, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Widget code review request[edit]

moved from User talk:Chieftain Alex

Hey Alex, per the discussion on Greener's talk page, can you please look at Widget:Game mode buttons and tell me if that widget is okay to use for non-userspace pages? —Nefastu 18:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Why does this introduce a dependency on jQuery UI? Also, could we keep the button styles inside the Template namespace? Otherwise we could probably have this toggle functionality easier and cleaner with CSS rules.
Do you have an example of this in action? poke | talk 23:06, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Ah, found one on User:Nefastu/Projects/SVH template rework/Demo1. There appears to be a bug when you switch quickly between the modes. The button press seems to be ignored when it’s still transitioning. Also not really a fan of those borders inside a border. Removing the border and setting the default background to transparent looks a bit better to me. poke | talk 23:12, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Hey poke, more links can be found on User:Nefastu/Projects/SVH template rework.
I'm using jQuery UI for the highlighting effect, since (at least to my knowledge) jQuery does not have a nice way to highlight specific elements.
Regarding the unresponsive button: This is due to the highlighting effect introducing a bug if one is switching game modes too fast: multiple game modes would be displayed.
Regarding the CSS/design: This is not my strong suit at all - if you have a better design, feel free to replace the current. :D Moving that section to the mediawiki css would be a better place for that as well, I agree. —Nefastu 00:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
So you're using jquery solely to apply a different colour with :hover/:active, and apply a 2px border?
Would using this require rewriting all the skill infoboxes to have separate pve/pvp/wvw facts? (triple workload?) -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 00:44, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
If we want this flashing effect, then we should probably roll our own instead of depending on a rather big library which main purpose is actually interactive components :D
Before going that route, I would recommend bringing this idea up with the community though. Right now, split skills are physically split over multiple pages. While this may seem wasteful when the skill versions are that similar, I do think that it’s still a bit easier to grasp and also easier to track. Having this all mixed in a single page might be a bit too confusing. I also fear that eventually ArenaNet will go the route they did with GW1 where they started completely changing the skills in PvP. So just switching the skill facts might not be enough, and we might need to replace even the skill description or need some place to put trivia.
I’m not saying that your idea is bad or that your work is wasted. No, I think it’s a very cool idea! But we should probably look at this problem together so that we can make sure we are not missing things that will be difficult to handle later. poke | talk 10:36, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) To switch skill facts and infobox facts between modes, I'm using jQuery as well:
  • Select all elements within the mw-content-body div (or one that is given via parameter, so pressing a game mode button on a /history page does not switch game modes for all entries on that page)
    • From that selection, select elements with classes that need to be hidden for the selected game mode.
    • From that selection, select elements with classes that need to be shown for the selected game mode (and play the highlighting effect to have an easier time seeing what has changed).
    • From that selection, update the active state of the buttons.
To have this widget working the way it currently is, I have copied the following templates to my userspace and modified them:
  • {{Game mode version}}: Now calls the widget to create buttons instead of links to other game mode pages.
  • {{Version history}}: No longer links to other game mode history pages. Includes a text to press a button to select a game mode if a skill is/was split.
  • {{Skill fact}}: If the game mode parameter is set, wrap the output within a div with the css classes set to gamemode {{{game mode}}}.
  • {{Skill infobox}}: Diff with all my changes, {{Trait infobox}}: Diff with all my changes.
    • With these changes, I'm adding another template that will be called if a skill or trait is split: Skill infobox/subobject and Trait infobox/subobject. These two templates basically set all properties (just like it currently works with other game modes being put on separate pages) for subobjects. Maybe not the best solution, but I don't need to completely rewrite the infoboxes themselves. This also allows for querying just like the old system: Example query (User talk:Nefastu/Projects/SVH template rework).
    • For split things that are displayed in the infobox, I simply check for three more parameters: <<parameter>>-pve, <<parameter>>-wvw, <<parameter>>-pvp (initiative, upkeep, energy and recharge for the skill infobox, recharge for the trait infobox).
    • The infoboxes now include {{Game mode version}} via the split parameter.
  • {{Skill infobox/historical}} and {{Trait infobox/historical}}: Same as the non-historical infobox, except for: no subobject call and calling the {{Game mode version}} template includes the scope={{{date}}} parameter.
Yes, there is more work to be done within the templates, however, it greatly reduces the amount of work to be done if a skill has been split, which basically is the most recent balance patch:
  • Currently, you need to update the main skill/trait page and copy the changes to the /history subpage AND create a separate game mode page with the changes for that game mode only, as well as copy these contents to the game mode /history subpage.
  • With this project, you only need to update the skill/trait page with the split param and add maybe recharge-pvp to the infobox or game mode to some skill facts. Then, you only need to copy that to the /history subpage.
Pages to edit: from 4 (or 6, if a skill/trait is split between all game modes - Panic Strike, [[Panic Strike (WvW)]], [[Panic Strike (PvP)]]) back to 2. —Nefastu 10:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
@poke: I've taken the jQuery UI code, stripped it down to only include highlighting mechanics and minified it, resulting in a script size shrink from 248kb to 8kb. Maybe that's okay too? :D
Regarding your comment about ANET eventually changing more things to a skill, here's a dev comment on how far ANET is willing to split things, posted 5 months ago. I'd say ANET does not want to split skills and traits like in GW1, so skill/trait splits will always be very similar, with just some numbers tweaked. —Nefastu 14:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
(Reset indent) I'd like to push this topic again, since there are still some pages left to update for the 2018-03-27 patch and I don't want to create unnecessary work prior to the (dis-)approval of my widget/project. The changes I've made so far:
  • I replaced the dependency to jquery-ui with another one: jquery-color. background-color cannot be animated by jQuery alone, so this dependency allows me to animate the background to have the highlighting effect for an easier time spotting changes between game modes.
    • With the new dependency, the cooldown on the buttons is no longer needed. So buttons should switch as fast as your browser can handle.
  • From poke's suggestion: The borders now have no borders and inherit the background-color unless active or moving the cursor over it. I added a border-radius as well, but again—I am not at all a designer. If you have a better design, feel free to update the css directly.
With that, my questions are: Is the widget okay to use for non-userspace pages? Am I allowed to push all my changes of the project templates to the main templates, so I can start updating all the skills and traits? —Nefastu 17:55, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
I moved this conversation from my talk page because I don't really care about WvW or PvP versions, and since I don't think my opinion necessarily reflects everyone elses, I thought this would be a better place to discuss it.
  • I'm not convinced that using buttons to change the displayed page content is intuitive.
  • Differences are normally minor between versions, so I wouldn't be opposed to documenting all versions on the same page separately without CSS gimmicks -- i.e. no separate PAGENAME_(WvW) and PAGENAME_(PvP) pages for the different. (i.e. infobox data contains PvE mode, and PvP and WvW differences would be captured in a notes section). The split pages just annoys me.
  • Likewise for reading skill update history, I think its fine with keeping the PvP and WvW notes in the minor changes section.
  • Going through the history to update pages to use any new agreed format is not to be underestimated.
  • I'm aware we have loads of complicated templates, mostly by me, so this is going to sound nuts (pot-kettle), but this diff looks like its going to be hard to read later.
You've done a great job with the /historical pages, but I do wonder if we could make a bot to clone the old version updates every month instead of doing it by hand. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 13:12, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Hm, I do care about the WvW and PvP versions, so I wouldn't just put something like "this skill has a 60 second cooldown in WvW/PvP" in the notes section. An easy way (with css gimmicks) to view the pve/wvw/pvp versions—at least for me—is much more interesting, since that is not possible without loading screens in-game.
Regarding your other points:
  • Intuitive design: What other options are there? These are the ones I currently see:
    • Separate pages: This needs to go.
    • Single page, wvw/pvp changes in the notes section: I don't know how we would correctly set subobject properties. I'd like to keep the wvw/pvp versions as subobjects. This would put wvw/pvp game mode versions as less important than the pve version, which I don't like.
    • Single page, API-like approach—list all game modes all the time: With some css styling (slightly colored backgrounds for wvw/pvp facts), this could be decent. Though for more than one or two split facts, this could get bloated (Restorative Illusions API entry).
    • Single page, buttons to switch between game modes: My current proposal.
  • wvw/pvp changes as minor changes for /history subpages: Not sure about this. While I'd like to keep the infobox even if the change is for wvw/pvp only (and is hidden by default), it would "clutter" the /history subpage. Though, after all, it's the /history subpage and I guess that page is allowed to repeat information. Maybe a parameter to set the selected game mode on page load within the skill/trait infobox/historical would be interesting.
  • Updating all the pages to the new format: To be honest, I've already spent too many hours on the skill version history project, so this is a minor time investment :D
  • Complicated templates: Yes, that's a problem. Possible solution: Move the pve/wvw/pvp detection for recharge, upkeep et cetera to the template call ({{recharge|{{{recharge|0}}}|pve={{{recharge-pve|}}}|wvw={{{recharge-wvw|}}}|pvp={{{recharge-pvp|}}} }}). Would keep the infobox template a little cleaner.
  • Updating /history subpages via bot: Should be possible, since all information is already on the main page. I'd probably only need to list the pages that link to a specific Game updates/YYYY-MM-DD page and has a /history subpage that does not link to it, then using regex to select the infobox and the correct version history table row content and format the output on the subpage. —Nefastu 19:37, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset) A card layout for the different game modes of the skill is perfect to me. Doing separate parameters inside the same template isn't a good idea. It's not very utilitarian for users to add or edit. The template needs to reflect the API and create a subobject for each game mode version. You don't need to make any changes to /history, add the game mode the change applies to as a column.

The template doesn't need to create separate subobjects unless there's multiple versions specified. The convention for templates will be to default to PvE mode for viewing. We know that certain attributes won't change, like name and skill type. The template should take advantage of that and provide an interface to add overrides for specific attributes. Then we'll have a multi-valued Property:Has game mode for the list of modes that version of the skill applies to.

{{skill infobox
| name = 
| icon = 
| description = 
| split = 
| variables = 
| activation = 
| initiative = 
| energy = 
| upkeep = 
| recharge = 
| profession =
| mode = {{skill infobox/mode|pve
         | id =
         | variables = 
         | activation = 
         | initiative = 
         | energy = 
         | upkeep = 
         | recharge = 45
         }}
         {{skill infobox/mode|pvp
         | id =
         | variables = 
         | activation = 
         | initiative = 
         | energy = 
         | upkeep = 
         | recharge = 60
         }}        
}}

Example of different recharge:

Default create one subobject with Has game mode:<PvE, WvW> with id: <skill id>
{{skill infobox
| name = 
| icon = 
| description = 
| split = 
| variables = 
| activation = 
| initiative = 
| energy = 
| upkeep = 
| recharge = 45
| profession =
| id =
| mode = {{skill infobox/mode|pvp 
         | id = <!-- PvP override will create second subobject with Has game mode:<PvP> with id: <PvP skill id> -->
         | recharge = 60
         }}        
}}

The template can do the hard work of working out how to create the subobjects. Any time a skill id is specified, the template knows we are talking about a completely unique skill object and we want to create a subobject for each one.--Relyk ~ talk < 21:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Eh? Nefatsu did all this ages ago. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 08:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
So move this to a new section or something? Good feedback though. The subobjects are missing a couple properties like Property:Has recharge time, Property:Is for race, combo finisher properties, and Property:Is historical. All the skill infobox templates are now tightly coupled to the game mode split code. The templates have missing or limited documentation, especially how the widget interacts or the subobject construction. I don't know how users would figure out how to add split skills. There's more duplicated code to handle both PvP and WvW than is necessary. The widget is still loading code from userspace at User:Nefastu/Projects/SVH template rework/Game mode version/script.js even though it's inlined in the widget. Most of this is probably only an issue for me since there's maybe 2-3 people that will ever look at and maintain the template and widget code. I can't complain too much since Nesfatu got this magically implemented.--Relyk ~ talk < 05:30, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Now that is excellent feedback. I've removed the duplicate userspace loading, and this has also resolved the JS error in the console "r is undefined". Yeah the code is clunky, wanna rewrite it? -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 06:20, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Discord[edit]

So, hm. Since everyone is so crazy about Discord nowadays... do we need/want one, perhaps? Might help with coverage, publicity, transparency and the likes. IRC is so yesterday, you know. User Incarnazeus Signature.pngtalk 11:50, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

>: - Felix Omni 15:08, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to the idea. I know the French wiki already has one, and most people don't even have a clue the IRC exists. - Doodleplex 15:13, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
So I have limited knowledge of both, but here's where I'm at:
  • IRC offers a text-based medium which can be accessed through various clients, including web-browsers as seen on our own wiki.
  • Discord offers... ? (I honestly don't know, and would love to be informed)
Some details would help if you wouldn't mind. G R E E N E R 17:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Most people know about Discord these days and very, very people know or use IRC(or at least the wiki's IRC). You can read catch up on chat in Discord, IRC once you leave, it poofs. Discord has a bunch of cute emotes, and you can post pictures and stuff which IRC doesn't have. Also you can have audio channels in Discord, though that might not be very useful for wiki purposes? I dunno. Almost forgot, you can use Discord via an app or web client. - Doodleplex 17:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
So as a more serious response, I've generally not loved Discord in the past- their primary audience is memelord teenagers and they take every opportunity to remind you of it. However, it is true that it's very popular among Guild Wars players, and since it's free (as far as I know) I've gone ahead and created a server which (as far as I know) you can join with this link. We'll take it out for a test run and if people like it and use it regularly, we can make a promo page for it similar to GW2W:IRC. - Felix Omni 20:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I've migrated to Discord for personal use. My experience with the gitter.im/arenanet/api-cdi has been positive and I'd like the something similar for the wiki that Discord can provide. Mostly for hotlinking wiki articles, images, rich text wikicode, and some other things that are common wiki activities.--Relyk ~ talk < 23:42, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I'll be honest IRC seems weird to me, and I've never used it. My guild uses Discord, as do a few social groups I'm in. You can have voice and chat rooms. Link and file embedding can be disabled on a channel by channel basis, as well as by rank. You can receive alerts on your phone, or just mute the entire channel completely. While the Discord marketing platform is cringy and we all hate it, it's a fantastic solution to offline organization, scheduling, communication, and sharing. Some ideas for how the Discord could be utilized:

  • On-Demand help center. Need some pages deleted? Broke some code somewhere and you can't find the goddamned colon? Just leave your message on Discord and you'll probably get a response within the hour, without having to worr about sticking around to hear it if noone is currently "online."
  • Planning chat: For big pages or large sets of pages when major patches hit. Multiple people can chat and coordinate at once without constant page refreshes, overwriting and reediting.
  • General chat (of course)
  • Technical chat: For technical questions like widget uses and macros and bots.
  • Help Wanted: Want a friend to go help you scale up an event? Want to test out stolen skills with a friend? Can you not afford that fancy guild decoration but someone else, who doesn't like taking pictures already has it? Ask here!

Just some ideas. While Discord can run the risk of "splitting" a community between "in-game" and "offline" (in our case, "talk page users" and "discord users"), I think that used carefully, it's a good idea.--Rain Spell (talk) 03:58, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Personally I'm all for it, love the damn program. I would caution the use of it with regards to important wiki-wide conversations though. It's easy to get carried away and come to a conclusion on a chat panel and not bring it back in writing here. Given however that this isn't a thing happening on a regular basis on the wiki, I don't see why it would be an issue. I know I'm not present as much these days here, but I think a chat of the sort would be useful. I've yet to see an offline chat bring *down* a community, if anything it just stays stagnant at worse (the chat, not the group). -Darqam 04:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Assuming Discord works the same as Slack (messaging and collaboration software that literally everyone in tech uses), users who join a channel can see what was said there even before they joined it, so that's one advantage it would have over IRC- though not exactly public, conversations are never really hidden. - Felix Omni 14:58, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

So Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Discord is now a thing, and anyone who cares to may join https://discord.gg/C4RMwPN and, y'know, be Discording socially. I'm there, I may listen to you. Not that it was hard to get me to listen to you before. To the degree that I will unofficially endorse any unofficial official wiki Discord, I officially unofficially endorse this one. - Tanetris (talk) 14:40, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposal: Guild Chat transcripts[edit]

ArenaNet's Guild Chat video series is an abundant resource of official developer interviews and insights. However, due to being in a video format, it's also very difficult to search previous episodes to find information as a source for documentation or discussion. While the wiki is primarily for documenting the game itself, we have previous made exceptions for other official videos. How would you feel if I were to prepare transcripts of some previous episodes of Guild Chat, possibly starting with the most recent episode and working backwards? Due to the length of these transcripts, each would require its own article and could be linked from the primary Guild Chat article. -- Dashface User Dashface.png 16:49, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Intriguing idea. My first concern would be the vetting of the transcripts. When we copy statements from ArenaNet staff, we've gone out of our way to do it {{verbatim}}. The Guild Chat episodes have Anet's seal of approval as being their word; will we then be needing their consent that our transcriptions are accurate? Would we need to add a caveat at the top of the page to say that the transcription has not been vetted by Anet staff?
I do like the idea, but before it gets going, we should reach out to Anet to get their stance on how best to handle a (non)-endorsed transcript of their words. G R E E N E R 17:10, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't be concerned about somehow misrepresenting ArenaNet- as it says at the top of the main page, the wiki is written and maintained by players. If anything, a simple disclaimer like "These unofficial transcripts were produced by players and may not be perfectly accurate" should suffice. As to the idea itself, I think it would be a valuable addition if we could provide this kind of resource. It would certainly be a time-intensive project, but for any contributor who wants to I say go for it. - Felix Omni 05:09, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Felix's stance. So long as we add a disclaimer making it clear that these are unofficial transcriptions of an official source, along with a link to said official source, we should be fine. I like this idea and I'd probably contribute. --Idris (talk) 11:36, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm fine with adding a disclaimer. Making a high-quality transcription can be time consuming, but it's something I've previously done professionally, and I think a lot of issues can be addressed by just being accurate. I'm presuming we'd need to start from scratch, though YouTube does provide subtitles for each episode that look automatically generated. Does anyone know if it's possible to extract these to use as a starting point? -- Dashface User Dashface.png 12:26, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I Googled "YouTube caption extract" and got lots of results, so it seems pretty possible! I gave the first hit a spin and the results were a formatting nightmare, but it's better than nothing, I suppose.--Idris (talk) 12:57, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Alright, if it's going to be understood to be "messy" no matter what we do, then a disclaimer will always have been needed. Best of luck with the transcribing, and thanks in advance for taking this on. G R E E N E R 17:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Hi everyone, I saw that discussion and noticed that we may be able to help you on that! I double-checked and we can access subtitles that are automatically generated by YouTube for all the past Guild Chat shows. We wouldn't release those publicly because we've noticed in the past that these subtitles contain errors and inaccuracies, and we didn't have the time to go through them and make them good enough. However these could come in handy for this project, as it would provide a good base to create transcripts from?

One thing to note: for current and future Guild Chat episodes, we've already started looking into ways how we could create better transcripts of Guild Chat. We haven't finished exploring this avenue, but I'll keep you updated if and when we know more!

Let us know what you think and, if you're interested, where you want to start from. Thank you! --Stephane Lo Presti talk 23:00, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Although I'm not part of the people who will be doing this much, I can say that correcting a text with inaccuracies is waaaaaaaaay faster than typing something out from scratch. So so long as those texts are somewhat accurate, they would most likely be very useful. It would probably require a trial run to see how accurate those auto subtitles are.
As well, if this is a project that will go on, I would also recommend making these transcripts in an SRT format so that it could be taken up by most video players (online or offline). There's a real quick overview of those files here to give people an idea.
It might be a bit more work, but if people are doing the transcripts, and presumably youtube would output them similar to this. It is infinitely easier to go from SRT to plain text (for wiki) than the opposite way around. These files could then also be available to the public; which could be expanded on (at a later point) by anet if they release the videos in raw form or decide to straight up use those srt files themselves.
Anyway, just a thought. -Darqam 04:24, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Stephane, would I be able to ask if you could e-mail me the automatically-generated subtitles you have for a recent episode of Guild Chat? I will put together a sample article and present it back to the Community Portal for appraisal. It's okay if the best we have to start from is a big wall of text. Like Darqam says, correcting will be much faster than starting from zero.
Darqam, making a subtitle file would require timestamps, which would be a million times harder than what I'm proposing. If someone wants to turn the corrected text into a properly-timestamped file, I have no issue with that, but only someone experienced in this would be able to do it efficiently. For example, someone who performs a similar role for foreign-language fansubs. For anyone else, I would predict many afternoons of anguish per episode. -- Dashface User Dashface.png 17:00, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I guess I suggested srt files because of how I assumed YT would output the subtitles. I am assuming that it would be a similar thing to SRT files, but yeah if it's not than I agree going from raw text to timestamp would be very painful. -Darqam 17:08, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
So that everyone is on the same page: I've sent Dashface the first .srt file for Guild Chat episode 60. Let me know if there's any other way I can help! --Stephane Lo Presti talk 16:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

GWW tag[edit]

moved from Talk:Skill

I'll confess to the mass GWW tag changes on skills earlier while I was on my cell phone. I see most of these are in the process of being reversed.

  • My case for this is:
    • The tag is small, making its addition easy.
    • A standard, graphical element is instantly recognizable, as opposed to the repeating text string which always has to be read to be recognized.
    • It was replacing an element that already existed, so it wasn't a matter of clutter.
    • The GW Wiki has much of the GW2W tag in place, so it made for a nice mirror of the two.

I'll concede that it made some formatting difficult, had 3 possible behaviours depending on where you clicked, and there is an inconsistency in whether its placed in Notes or Trivia.

I await your feedback. Turbo404 (talk) 01:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Template:Gww is really meant to suggest that a certain subject matter is covered on gww in a different context, ie two articles describing the same entity. Two skills sharing a name are not the same entity; it's just a little nod from the developers, which is why it only merits a trivia bullet point. The Guild Wars skill template only exists to standardize that trivia a little bit, since it's fairly common. - Felix Omni 02:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm pretty much going to echo Felix here. The wiki is meant to be a source of useful or relevant knowledge for the GW2 game. When there's a gw1 piece of information which can help the reader, such as providing context, then either an inline link or {{gww}} can help. A good example of this being used is on the Sunken Droknah page (note the inline and template usage). As the relevance diminishes, so too should the flagging of the reader's attention. For example, the reader gains little more than possible nostalgia by finding out that Mending was a gw1 skill, so we relegate the information to an unobtrusive piece of trivia. G R E E N E R 04:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree with what was said above. As for the inconsistencies in notes/trivia, GWW/Guild Wars skill should always be placed in trivia (I noticed a few cases where this wasn't true yesterday), so feel free to move them from notes to trivia, if you happen upon it. —Ventriloquist 06:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't think we actually have a standard as to where {{gww}} should go. Some folks think it belongs in Trivia; others think it should go in whatever section is at the bottom of the page. Frequently, it'll get stranded in the middle of an article because it was originally added to the bottom but new sections have since been added below it. Always putting it in Trivia makes sense from an ease-of-editing standpoint, but it's a terrible choice aesthetically if Trivia is otherwise empty. --Idris (talk) 07:17, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
My personal sense of aesthetics is not offended by a trivia section only having one item. (I now realize you meant gww alone in trivia, which is indeed weird since the header would appear to be empty.) So to address one of Turbo404's points, how would people feel about adding the GWW icon to the Guild Wars skill template? Something like
Gwwlogo.png A Guild Wars skill bears the same name as this skill.
where the icon takes the place of the bullet point. - Felix Omni 15:17, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I like it! --Idris (talk) 15:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I was thinking exactly the same this morning. For those of us that look for it, it’s nice to see.Turbo404 (talk) 17:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
@Idris A slight misunderstanding - I meant that if there is an existing trivia section, it should go there. If not, then at whatever the lowest section is, yes (because of the align-right). Sorry for the misunderstanding! As for the suggestion, I like it, it looks clean and hopefully solves the issue that was brought up. —Ventriloquist 17:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Fair enough, Vent! I think we should add a useage guide to both of these templates to help reduce misunderstandings in the future. How's this for {{gww}}?

Pretend this is a proper header titled "Useage"
  • Place at the top of the article's Trivia section. If there is no Trivia section, place it at the top of the lowest section on the page instead.
  • This template's purpose is to provide a link between elements which appear in both games, such as: Sunken Droknah, Glob of Ectoplasm, Celestial Compass. It's preferred not to use this template for elements which are merely inspired by elements from the original Guild Wars, such as: Sunspear Outfit, Sight beyond Sight, [Insert third example].
    • Use {{Guild Wars skill}} instead of this template for skills which share a name with Guild Wars skills.
    • Write your own Trivia line for other elements, for example: This outfit resembles the armor worn by [[gww:Order of the Sunspears|Sunspear]] NPCs in the original ''Guild Wars''.

--Idris (talk) 01:01, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Might be an idea to create an icon template so custom trivia lines can use the GWW icon too. Edit: Or we could just tweak {{Guild Wars skill}} so it allows custom text while still displaying the icon, as I've mocked up on my sandbox. This whole idea is dumb. {{icon}} works just fine for this. --Idris (talk) 04:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
I think it would still be reasonable to use gww for skills that are clearly based on gw1 skills, for example Fireball (Both Elementalist Fire skills, same name, both are a projectile and deal splash damage). Mending would be one case where I think it wouldn't apply, Sight beyond Sight would be a difficult example being somewhat different but sharing the anti-blind mechanic.--Soulblydd (talk) 07:01, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure such distinction is necessary, Soulblydd. If anything, it might cause more confusion for wiki contributors. I think sticking to the GWW tag for anything other than skills/traits is perfectly fine, with perhaps adding an icon, as discussed above. —Ventriloquist 14:04, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of that idea. Two skills functioning similarly are still not the same entity. Let's keep it simple and consistent, and use {{guild wars skill}} for skills. - Felix Omni 14:26, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Since nobody's commented on my useage section idea, I've gone ahead and added it to gww. Feel free to tweak/remove any elements you don't like about it. --Idris (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I mean, it looks like we're using {{Guild Wars skill}} for traits too (which I guess Idris just added) and already going out of scope. This can totally be a generic template shorthand for common content like skills, traits, NPCs, locations, items, and objects. Both templates do the same exact thing as far as how we use them. If we want a template whose purpose is to indicate GWW provide additional context and information and a separate template that indicates a trivia reference, we should make explicit templates for those use cases. And maybe abandon the design of a right-aligned text box to avoid trivia sections that appear to have no content...--Relyk ~ talk < 06:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that was me. I don't see traits as going out of scope, since they're very similar in nature to skills (compared to things like NPCs and locations, anyway) and they're always named after Guild Wars skills, which, I mean. Is exactly the name of the template. --Idris (talk) 06:46, 5 June 2018 (UTC)