Template talk:Skill fact/Archive 1

I don't really like the table look... I'm going to change it to a single line of effects. Aqua (T|C) 22:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, table helps to use the length but can create a staggered look (not better). I debated between the two, but chose the table to try to fill up the space for large monitors. Venom20 22:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Also I should point out taht the table helps to overlap with the infobox so that the conditions do not sit under the infobox. They are positioned under the skill description to help minimize page length. Venom20 22:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm soooo bad at choosing a place to ask a question. I'll just copy my feedback from there to here with some edits.

First of all, I like Venom's layout more, as it better utilizes whitespace under the skill description, but that's a matter of taste, I believe. Also, I have two questions: 1st, what if several stacks of effect are granted, like ₃ Bleeding (5 s)? How will it get displayed? 2nd, how will misc effects like  Stability and get displayed? Alfa-R 10:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The miscellaneous effects like  Stealth just have not been added to the template yet. I've ran into a few skills that use stealth specifically, so I added a stealth parameter to the page, but it's not being used yet because I have not added it to the template. Venom20 10:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok then. How about effect stacking? Also, some nitpicking on the template usage: while in-game descriptions show effect timing without spaces (e.g. 4s), a correct way (one found in different manuals of style at least) is to insert a space before units of measure (e. g. 4 s). Alfa-R 10:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

While on the subject of durations, do we write 4s, 4 s, or 4 seconds? Personally I prefer the last. — Rhoot 03:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually for consistency we should probably add seconds, sec, or whatever to the template. That way we don't end up with 40 variants of it. — Rhoot 03:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I noticed this has implications on skills like Brutal Shot (rifle skill) which currently reads "Vulnerability: 10s (5 stacks) seconds". Ignoring the redundant s for now, do we want (5 stacks) to appear between 10 and seconds? Don't suppose anybody knows how these skills are currently described in game? --Eerie Moss 13:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Number of stacks shows as index next to icon, like this: ₃ Bleeding. Templates for intensity-stacking effects allow this kind of display, we just need to separate stacks into a different parameter (like 'bleeding=5|bleedingstacks=3') Alfa-R 13:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Cool, thanks, I'll edit skills as I come across them once everything is in place. Can we make the number a tad bigger? People might not even notice it's there at that size. Is this being discussed elsewhere? --Eerie Moss 14:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I have the same problem with the tiny number - I thought that was a random squiggle until I read the comment and realized it was a 3.

My first instinct is to display things as they are in-game to reduce any possible confusion arising from differing representations, rather than trying to come up with more "efficient" or "correct" ways of doing things. So I would recommend we use whichever form of "s"/"sec"/"second(s)" is used in the game (I thought it was "s", but I didn't think to take any screenshots), as well as "(5 stacks)" for listing intensity stacking. —Dr Ishmael 14:41, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Itook screenshots, it is indeed a single s for seconds. There is no space between the number and the letter. So 10s for 10 seconds. Venom20 14:47, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, that index was done when we were using only the default font, and with Cronos it indeed looks too small. I've changed it to <sub>, should look better now. Regarding seconds: second is a SI basic unit and indeed has a standard symbol of "s". According to manuals of style used (The Chicago Manual of Style, and the AMA manual of style, which the former is refering to for scientific notation) units of measure should (a) be abbreviated when used with numbers and spelled when used separately, and (b) be separated from numbers with a space except for degrees and angle measures, so I would once again say that we spell it as 10 s rather then 10s or 10 seconds. Alfa-R 15:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with the space, since that doesn't really change the representation. I'll accept the consensus if most other people prefer "sec" or "second(s)"; to me, it just seems like matching the game's descriptions is the most logical thing to do. —Dr Ishmael 15:44, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Normally I'd agree but for durations I don't. The game displays cripple as "Cripple (5s): -50% speed". We currently do not put the speed reduction in there (since it can be seen on the cripple page anyway [hopefully]). Since we are not quoting that part of the tooltip verbatim, I don't see why we need to use the same way to refer to seconds. "Cripple: 5 seconds" looks — and reads — a lot better than '"Cripple: 5s".

Also, the way I've put the stacks into skills' info so far is so it appears like "Cripple: (x3) 5 seconds", but that's just been temporary until we have a solution for it. — Rhoot 15:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Besides stacks, there are other unusual effect entries like for Distortion that are going to cause problems with attempts to add a time unit in the template. It would be less complicated to just leave it in the parameter input values as they are now than attempt to adapt the template for unusual situations like this. —Dr Ishmael 18:47, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

In that specific case, I don't see it as much of a problem since it's already part of the description. I do see your point though. My main issue is with how durations appear differently over the wiki (I've seen "4s", "4 s", "4 sec", "4 seconds"). If we decide to still keep the time unit in the articles themselves then that's fine by me (even tough that makes DPL harder to do, e.g for "List of skills that cause bleeding"), but if that's what we decide then we definitely need to settle for a format. — Rhoot 05:13, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Unless there's a dpl reason for doing otherwise, I think my preference here would be to represent this roughly as it is in game. I don't mind not being verbatim - we can put a space inbetween the number and the symbol if we decide it's cleaner or more correct - but the easiest way to cater for conditionals (eg. multiple stacks or variable durations) seems to be to just put them into the skill description. (Edit: In other words, remove the "seconds" suffix from the template and bake the unit into skill pages.) --Eerie Moss 06:30, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

revamp proposal

I've come up with a way to:

1. keep the time unit within the template
2. allow for special cases with extra text
3. list an effect multiple times intuitively

Unfortunately, it involves a complete reconfiguration of this template. My starting assumption is that all effect descriptions follow this generalized form:

<Effect>: <prefix> <number>  <suffix>

I haven't seen anything that breaks this yet, but I haven't checked every single skill on the wiki, either. Anyway, based on this, I came up with a better way to arrange this template:

{{Skill fact|<effect>|<numeric>|pre=<prefix text>|suf=<suffix text>}}

Instead of using a different named parameter for every possible effect, we instead pass the effect as an unnamed parameter, and use it in a switch statement to determine the output format. For effects that are timed, we include a time unit; for others, we don't.

This addresses the above points by:

1. displaying a time unit for the specific effects that are measured in time
2. exposing parameters for text that comes either before or after the number
3. requiring a separate template call per effect, which makes multiple instances of the same effect more intuitive; rather than having 1 call for all effects, then separate calls for the additional instances of a single effect

I have it set up here, using Blowtorch as a demo. There is a minor display issue, which you can see on the Blowtorch page: if the effects are given on separate lines (the most intuitive and readable format), it results in each one being output as an individual definition list, which creates extra space between each effect. If I remove the linebreaks between the template calls, they get treated as a single list. And if I subst: the templates when they're on separate lines, that also creates a single list. I can't figure out why this is happening. —Dr Ishmael 17:18, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

That's a great idea IMO. How will it work with stacking effects though? Alfa-R 17:24, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I presume that the new proposal still has stacks as text afterwards? Venom20 17:25, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Stacks, like on Brutal Shot (rifle skill), would currently be a suffix, yes.

{{Skill fact|vulnerability|10|suf=(5 stacks)}}

Since that's a relatively common thing, though, it might be a good idea to expose a parameter {stacks} to make it simpler.

{{Skill fact|vulnerability|10|stacks=5}}

How does that sound? —Dr Ishmael 17:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds alright (in regards to adding a stacks parameter). Although not implemented initially, the stacks should utilize the subscript as it does in-game rather than text afterwards, if possible. Venom20 21:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, so that *is* the in-game way of displaying stacks? I hadn't paid any attention to it during the BWE (not sure if I even encountered any skills that applied multiple stacks), so I didn't know. I've updated the demo to include {stacks} and display it that way. —Dr Ishmael 21:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Today I realized that there's actually a fairly important class of effects that's missing from this template: combo effects. I added them to the new version on the Referata mirror - it introduces a second usage format, where parameter 2 is not a number but the combo type.

{{Skill fact|combo|<type>|suf=<suffix text>}}

—Dr Ishmael 18:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

If you are referring to the finishers and initiators, they are already present in the infobox. It is redundant to have them in two locals on one short page. It should stay in the effect template (this one), but should then be removed from the skill infobox. Venom20 15:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking, I forgot to mention that above. —Dr Ishmael 15:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I approve of this template and would like to move it over. Although it should be noted that ingame there is no space between the numeric and the s. There haven't really been any objections to this revamp in the few days of discussion. Venom20 15:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The representation of time units in general is a simple thing to change. I'm used to having a space between numbers and units, and to having the units abbreviated, but that's mostly because I spent 6 years studying chemistry. Probably the simplest thing to agree on for now is to use in-game representation. —Dr Ishmael 16:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No need to lecture me on unit representation (one of my degrees is in physics). I am also going against my grain, that is why I suggested the in-game format. But yes, that is simple enough to adjust. Venom20 17:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I disagree on spaces. Omission of space before unit of measure is an error, like e.g. a missing comma, and should be corrected, unless we are copying smth verbatim (which we don't do in case of skill descriptions). Alfa-R 18:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I didn't think I was lecturing, sorry. Anyway, I guess I can hop on AWB and get started converting all the skill pages to use this new format. —Dr Ishmael 18:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I approve of this change. To get back on the subject of time units however, I honestly think we should stick with what they use in the tooltip as it's what I think looks best. Here's an example tooltip: [[:File:Comet Tooltip.png]]. Using just s (without the space) when it's not the main thing in the effect, and using the full 'seconds' when it is. — Rhoot 10:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Addition: I'm getting more and more tempted to make all of these behave just like they do in the tooltips. Since we're making them look like the actual tooltips, they should probably have the same structure as them as well. — Rhoot 10:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear God, you've changed it a lot... will you guys continue with this structure? it seems to fit every and all information from all the skills, and yet, it may be easier to have somehow the old structure of passing everything as parameters of a single call of effects template; but anyways it looks fine now, good job! - 186.218.189.201 04:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Nope, this is necessary because you have to be able to use multiple instances of a certain effect, like Burning on Blowtorch or Stun on Skull Crack or Damage on Blunderbuss. That would be extremely unwieldy to try to fit into a single template call... I've seen templates like that before, and they were just horrible. They worked, but they were still horrible. —Dr Ishmael 04:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

It's alright then. We're sincerely lucky to have GW2W with heavy participation of the contributors, it's great to know you people work hard towards making a good way of representing the huge data GW2 has; it's particularly good for translation projects in which we don't get much participation, I apply every and all updates to the BR wiki at the same time I fix things if I see anything wrong here. The standard you've decided for skills' representation is great. Again, good job! :) - 201.24.9.137 14:57, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Missed one thing, I've seen you using this somewhere, you could make a template page with a smaller description (e.g. Skill-e, S-effect, etc) and redirect it to "Skill fact", it seems more intuitive to have a smaller name... just a suggestion! - 201.24.9.137 15:03, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

remove automatic links from effect templates

Since this is sort of a central hub for all the effect templates, this is probably the best place for this discussion. Continuing from here, the premise is that we should remove the automatic link from the effect templates in order to eliminate overlinking on skill pages. Discuss. —Dr Ishmael 01:13, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

As stated there, I completely agree. They are a nuisance. - Infinite - talk 01:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

There are many skills in which the effects have links that are not inlcuded in the description... This idea feels like throwing the baby with the water... If anything, I would remove the link to damage, nothing else (edited, for the records, from my phone). Erasculio 10:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

How about a "link=yes" parameter? Or "link=no" if that works better. - Infinite - talk 10:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Soubds great to me. Erasculio 11:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've seen things like that in templates before, and it usually ends up being needless clutter because it's used 99% of the time. The remaining 1% isn't worth the hassle to maintain the code. Either keep a link, or leave it out. —Dr Ishmael 12:39, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, {{effect}} already has a link= parameter... bah, let's make use of it then. —Dr Ishmael 12:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

 Damage: 10

 Level 1 damage: 10

 [[Damage|Damage]]: 10

There. —Dr Ishmael 12:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Another switch statement rule required

Effects such as Stun have their effects displayed in the format:
Stun: x seconds
Currently there is no format for that. I also don't know which effects follow that format from the top of my head. - Infinite - talk 23:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Someone with a clear brain should code it in for me. I managed to break everything with my sleepy head (but reverted)! - Infinite - talk 23:25, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Also the effects in this format are;

• Daze
• Float
• Knockdown
• Sink
• Stun
• Duration

So there can be a universal line of code for those. - Infinite - talk 00:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought the consensus was that we aren't going to document effects exactly as they are in-game for various reasons.

• We omit the descriptions for boons/conditions with static effects because they are static. (chill, cripple, retaliation, etc.)
• We omit the descriptions for boons/conditions with damage effects because they scale with Malice/"Condition damage" based on a standard formula.
• We omit the descriptions for Might and Invulnerability because their effect scales with character level.
• Since we aren't showing the descriptions for any of these, there's no need to show parentheses around the duration.

If we want to change any of this, I think it should be discussed first so that everyone is on the same page.

Another thing I noticed - please don't include thousand separators in large numbers. That's just going to confuse SMW later on. Instead, if we want to include it in the displayed number, we can use the MW built-in function formatnum within the template. Example: {{formatnum:1000}} → 1,000 —Dr Ishmael 00:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought the consensus was to document it as it appears at level 80, without gear, traits, and stat-altering effects, hence I started working towards that.

I feel there may have been several conflicting "consensuses" on this topic spread across the wiki. We'll need to have a centralised one immediately.

Also, regarding the SMW note; I did not know that, so I'll keep that in mind. - Infinite - talk 00:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

That was only when discussing damage/healing, I don't think we ever touched on boons/conditions in that discussion. At level 80 with 0 Condition damage, then all of them have constant effects, anyway: Burning is always 320 per second, Bleeding is always 40 per stack per second, Might is always +35 per stack, Vunerability is always -30 per stack, etc, so that falls under the "no need to display constant effects" clause. —Dr Ishmael 00:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to not omit, but automatically display that (per example, "Bleeding(10s): 400 Damage" would display when using {{Skill fact|bleeding|10}})? If it's standard, you still want to actually see that information, from my perspective. - Infinite - talk 00:48, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

That's what needs to be discussed. I've always felt that basic game mechanics like that do not need to be shown repeatedly throughout the wiki, even if they are shown repeatedly throughout the game. —Dr Ishmael 01:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Then how would you suggest we display a skill description (examples very welcome)? Verbatim would probably be something people expect, but if it can be done more efficiently, we should go for it. - Infinite - talk 01:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Short answer: the way this template was before you modified it. —Dr Ishmael 01:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

And how do we get the message across to not-as-familiar users that damage variable via conditions, etc. are not to be included? Either way, the numbers should be formatted with separators, to ease reading. - Infinite - talk 01:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that would be obvious just from looking at existing skills and this template's documentation.

I kinda feel like I'm getting argued into a corner here, doing nothing but defending my idea - not that it's either of our faults, that's just what this feels like to me, so I'm gonna break out. I would not be strongly opposed to doing it the other way. I only think it is unnecessary, not that it is utterly stupid. However, I would like for us to be completely consistent with how we do it, though - that means every condition and every boon gets a description, even the ones like Chilled that never change at all.

• Format the description such that it does not unduly clutter up the effect listing. The simplest way would be to color it gray, like gray text in GW1 concise descriptions (use a span with class so users could change the color if they want).
• Because they are based on standard formulas, there's no need to have input parameters for them - they can be calculated from the duration and stacks inputs.

Example: input of {{Skill fact|bleeding|stacks=3|3}} generates {{bleeding|stacks=3}}: 3 s <span class="graytext">(360 damage)</span> which displays as:

₃ Bleeding: 3 s (360 damage)

That's how I would format it your way. —Dr Ishmael 01:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't mean to discuss it as if I'm trying to corner your input. It's kind of extremely late here and I just wanted to find out how we really want to document skills on the wiki. :P

That said, I agree with consistency. Consistency is good. I just feel like ArenaNet is screwing us over with all the changing variables and inconsistent values (outside of skills). I think we can go back to how it was just before I started updating, and maybe consult a larger part of the wiki community to see what people generally expect to see for skills.

The other idea I had for stuff like this was a concept, which is probably technically impossible; having input boxes somewhere along the top of the wiki for your character's stats, which will then be used in formulas on pages to display the actual values you would see in-game. My ideas are almost always technically challenging as hell, though. :D - Infinite - talk 01:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually... I've had that exact same idea. :O Let's do it!

But yes, we should definitely get more input on this before changing anything. —Dr Ishmael 02:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Condition damage

Skills currently do not show how much condition damage they do. Virtue of Justice, for example, doesn't show how much burning damage it does, only how long the burning lasts. This idea was implemented together with the notion that the wiki should not display the effects descriptions as seen in the game under the assumption that saying, for example, "Swiftness (8s): 132% Movement Speed" would be redundant, as people would be capable of learning what Swiftness does just by looking at the Swiftness article. IMO, that's very flawed logic, but anyway, it does not apply to condition damage. Again using Virtue of Justice as an example, the skill article doesn't tell how much burning damage the skill does, only how long the burning last. Looking at the Burning article, it also does not tell how much damage each duration of burning does, since it's a formula with multiple elements.
In other words, by not describing how much damage each condition does in the skill articles, we are leaving information nearly as important and as hard for people to find out than the skill damage itself. The same applies to the amount of health healed by regeneration, for the records. Not telling people this information for the sake of "avoiding redundancy" means not documenting those skills properly for the sake of not displaying information that is not described anywhere else in the wiki. Erasculio 20:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

After a few days with no feedback on the above, I have implemented a damage listing on the Burning condition, following the formula on that article (with a character level 80 and no trait points on the condition damage trait, just as the listed skill damage assumes level 80 with no points on the Power trait). Still waiting for more feedback before implementing the same for all damage-dealing conditions. Erasculio 13:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It should be in the individual effect templates, not here. And it can be calculated from the duration, instead of being explicit. —Dr Ishmael 14:06, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

And since the discussion above had pretty much decided on doing this anyway, I went ahead and added it for all 4 damage-dealing conditions. —Dr Ishmael 14:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Would be worth doing the same for regeneration, for the same reasons. Erasculio 17:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Forgot about that, thanks. —Dr Ishmael 14:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Issues with this template

The problem of this template is that it's too rigid. Using the skill infobox template, it's possible to extract individual variables so we can have lists like the List of necromancer skills displaying a skill icon, a skill description or a skill recharge. In other hand, if someone were to display a skill range, it would not be so simple due to how this template doesn't really have a "range" field, it instead uses range as a variable itself. Meanwhile, it's not really any easier to use {{Skill fact|range|900}} than just range = 900.
I would suggest merging this template with the skill infobox and replacing the skill effects with individual parameters added to the infobox. This would give us more flexibility when trying to work with those variables, would reduce the number of templates in the wiki, and would make the coding in the skill infoboxes more uniform. Erasculio 13:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

That's been discussed before, and unfortunately it's impossible due to skills like Blowtorch that list the same effect multiple times. —Dr Ishmael 14:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Bleeding formula needs update

I noticed during the stress test on 9th August that bleeding formula changed. I already updated it on Bleeding page, but it should be modified in the template too. I tried to do it but I'm new to Wiki editing. Someone please update the template. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oni Link (talk • contribs) at 17:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC).

The condition damage formulas have been all kinds of weird since BWE3, and since all we've had are stress tests, I haven't had time to test them at different levels or Condition Damage. At level 80 and 0 CD, I have:

• Bleeding: 42.5/stack/s
• Burning: 328/s
• Confusion: 65/stack
• Poison: 84/s

Since I don't know what those numbers are at different levels, I can't say whether it should be e.g. 2.5 + 0.5*Level or 0.53125*Level for Bleeding. If you know numbers at lower levels, that would help solve this. —Dr Ishmael 17:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I checked the formula in PvE at lvl 17. The bleeding damage from the sword skill 1 was 88. Its duration is 8 seconds, so 11 damage per second. The level was 17 so

0.5 * Level = 8.5

11 - 8.5 = 2.5 base damage per stack per second.

That's why I'm asking to update the formula. I also checked on other classes, on different levels and in PvP too. Till the last stress test, that was the formula. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oni Link (talk • contribs) at 21:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC).

Then I realized that the formulas here reflect level 80 and 0 CD, and that's precisely the numbers I know exactly. Derrrrrr. —Dr Ishmael 21:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Confusion damage

So, confusion deals double damage in pve and wvwvw vs spvp. The effect template reflects the spvp damage. As of right now, the spvp damage is the standard damage and pve and wvwvw is the exception damage. Does that sounds like a reasonable state of affairs to people? ~ Capric 16:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Hm, that's a toughie. The people most interested in the exact numbers would be sPvP players, but the majority of players/readers probably don't play sPvP. My gut says to list it at the higher value and say the exception is half, rather than listing the lower value and saying the exception is double. Unless... does the tooltip display different values? Or does it always display the same value, but the actual damage is halved/doubled? —Dr Ishmael 16:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Tooltips and damage done both change. I... don't really know what the best approach is either, I just figured there should be some standard one way or the other. ~ Capric 16:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I say use the higher value as default, then, and let the half-damage in sPvP be the exception. But let's wait a day or so for additional comments before making the change. —Dr Ishmael 16:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Welp it seems to be pretty uncontested/unnoticed at this point. I'm gonna—presuming I'm doing this right—make the change to say that the "standard" damage is pve/wv3 and spvp is exception. ~ Capric 05:29, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

New "Evade" parameter

Since the March 26, 2013 update, Evasion skills have a new parameter called "Evade:" which specifies a duration in seconds. This should probably be added to this template, and the skills listed on the Evade page updated with the new data. The icon used in the tooltip is that of an open book (I guess that's the icon they use when they don't have a specific icon for that parameter). Here's the data for most of those skills:

• Thief: Disabling Shot (shortbow): 3/4 sec, Flanking Strike (sword): 1/2 sec, Death Blossom: 1/4 sec, Flanking Strike (thief spear skill): 3/4 sec, Shadow Assault (spear): 4 sec, Withdraw: 3/4 sec, Roll for Initiative: 3/4 sec.
• Ranger: Power Stab (greatsword): 1 sec, Serpent's Strike (sword): 3/4 sec, Stalker's Strike (dagger): 1¼ sec, Quick Shot (shortbow): 3/4 sec, Evasive Strike (spear): 1½ sec, Lightning Reflexes: 1¼ sec
• Engineer: Elixir S: ??
• Mesmer: Evasive Strike (mesmer skill): ??
• Charr: Hidden Pistol: 3/4 sec

Thanks. --Alad 17:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Added--Relyk ~ talk > 19:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! :) --Alad 20:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

"|misc|icon=" not working?

Not showing the proper icon. (see the page examples) --Alad 00:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Parameter is image, not icon, that's why. —Dr Ishmael 00:47, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Parameter isn't listed anywhere on the page.... thought I would list an example here that I keep seeing:

{{skill fact|misc|alt=Blast Radius(10s)|image=Ground target circle.png|feet|stacks=10}} -

₁₀ Blast Radius(10s): feet

Various effects that have to use the "misc" type

I have no idea if using "misc" as an effect will have an... effect on current and future programming efforts to automate lists, etc... But perhaps this is something to think about. In particular, effects that do damage or heal, and that are neither the effect called "damage" nor "healing", and where a "coefficient=" needs to be entered but cannot (due to "misc"). I encountered this issue while updating Healing Signet, changing the passive effect from "Healing" to Healing Signet (effect) by using the "misc" type. If I use "healing" as the effect type with "alt=" text, there are 2 problems: 1) Whatever text I put will always link to the Healing page, not to the effect's page entered in "alt=", and 2) I can't change the icon (it's always the healing icon). Can something be done to improve this? Thanks. --Alad (talk) 07:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This ended up being addressed in Guild_Wars_2_Wiki_talk:Community_portal#Icons_and_other_stuff, with examples on User:Relyk/skill effect. You can completely override the default link, icon, and tooltip to be what you need.

{{User:Relyk/skill effect|Healing Signet (effect)|200 heal per sec|alt=[[Healing Signet (effect)|]]}}

  Healing Signet (effect): 200 heal per sec

We can have the default output instead use the (proposed) effect template and grab properties from the infobox:

{{User:Relyk/sandbox/effect|Healing Signet (effect)}}: 200 heal per sec

 Healing Signet: 200 heal per sec

That can be ignored as far as coefficients though. The "damage coefficient" and "healing coefficient" refer specifically to those two skill facts. The healing and related coefficient from the Healing Signet effect would be information on the effect page, and I don't think we could use that even set as a property when effects can do anything for their duration.--Relyk ~ talk < 09:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Great that you've been working on it already. Pulling the data from the effect into the skill makes a lot of sense. One could then ideally just put {{effectZ|Healing Signet (effect)}} in the skill infobox, and get it all without duplication. I hope you can figure it out. :) --Alad (talk) 13:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Blur linking to Distortion

The blur effect previously had no page of its own. Now that it does, shouldn't it be linking to its own page? (See Blurred Frenzy, for example.) --Alad (talk) 22:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Rally

if someone with access to Vengeance could add the needed icon/text tooltip for it, that'd be great. (brought up by ip in edit summary) -Chieftain Alex 13:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Preset aoe definition in alt parameter

Like, for example, there is a lot of this:

| blowout = {{Blowout|{{{alt|{{#switch:{{{1}}}|aoe=Area of effect|{{ucfirst:{{{1}}}}}}}}}}}}{{#if:{{{strikes|}}}| ({{{strikes}}}x)}}: {{{pre|}}} {{formatnum:{{{2|}}}}} {{{suf|}}}

And it uses "Area of effect" as preset text when someone enters alt=aoe, is it used somewhere? I've been checking the template's structure because I'm making a tooltip script that pulls data from this wiki so I get to parse the data coming from the API, removing redundancies is needed to reduce data processing. --177.132.121.59 02:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That was completely inoperable code - since the main #switch statement is on parameter 1, then the value of parameter 1 has to be 'blowout'/etc. in order to match any of those cases. Thus, since it has to be e.g. 'blowout', it can't be 'aoe', and the sub-#switch will never get a match on 'aoe'.

It was there because, a long time ago, all of those cases fell through to the same block of code. When the cases were broken out to their own blocks, the full code block was copied and this bit was left in all of them. —Dr Ishmael 02:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct, my fault, I didn't examine well the structure, if it's "Blowout" it can't be "aoe" duh. Thanks! --177.132.121.59 03:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't blame yourself, it's a massive template with lots of sub-templates. Thanks for pointing it out so I could remove it. —Dr Ishmael 04:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Btw, I'm Valento! :) as soon as I get the js up I can post a link here if someone else find it useful. --177.16.96.116 04:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Is the math off somewhere.

So I figured out that if you copy a chat link that you can view the skill without any modifiers in game. So I decided to test that out and start updating the skills..... Small problem. I edited Mark of Blood The damage output for the math is wrong. It states regen for 6.5s for only 840 health damage is also 1430 is damage. I will see if I can find more examples. But makes me wonder is the math off somewhere. Anzenketh (talk) 02:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Nope math is not off I just don't know how to deal with coefficients and scaling. Also are we updating the pages as a level 80 or other. I was looking for a explanation however damage and healing power does not explain it well enough for me to understand. Anzenketh (talk) 02:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

In addition to that copying and pasting the chat link does not give base information that we use on the skill pages. I need to figure out how to do that. Anzenketh (talk) 03:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

See GW2W:Skill formatting for a rundown of how skill facts are dealt with - what is the criteria etc. So basically, you can't have any "modifying" stats, traits or anything that could affect the description of the skill. --Ventriloquist 08:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Duration facts and fraction

Could we please have {{Fraction}} on duration facts value? So we avoid using & frac12 ; on those parameters? – Valento ^msg 13:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Sample skills I got:

Fact 'Fear', value '1½' (Skill 'Doom')

Fact 'immobilized', value '1½' (Skill 'Tainted Shackles')

Fact 'blur', value '2½' (Skill 'Blurred Frenzy')

Fact 'fury', value '12½' (Skill 'Throw Stimulant')

Fact 'swiftness', value '12½' (Skill 'Throw Stimulant')

Fact 'daze', value '¼' (Skill 'Head Shot')

Fact 'daze', value '1½' (Skill 'Hilt Bash')

Fact 'stun', value '1½' (Skill 'Hilt Bash')

Fact 'stun', value '1½' (Skill 'Earthshaker')

Fact 'daze', value '½' (Skill 'Uppercut')

Fact 'stun', value '1½' (Skill 'Whirling Strike')

It's not breaking the script, Dr Ishmael, it just looks more semantic, so I thought I'd point it out. I guess a bot can fix every page afterwards. :) – Valento ^msg 14:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

First, I would double-check the base (naked L80) values on the conditions/boons, because it's very odd for those to have non-integer values. Stun and daze, yes, I'll add the fraction template for them. —Dr Ishmael 14:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me but what do you mean by 'base' and 'naked L80'? – Valento ^msg 14:35, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Naked means without boon duration sources in this case. In other cases it's the most neutral state a skill can be in at level 80.
I edited Throw Stimulant it is 12.5 seconds because of Packaged Stimulants, and the skill can only be used if you use this trait. However, if you link the skill in chat, the boons are not there for any player without this trait equipped. Tyndel (talk)

Ah I see. So probably someone threw these numbers in these skills with some traits equipped. – Valento ^msg 14:45, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

For the necro skill facts I'm pretty sure it's correct, since I updated them a few days ago. Immobilize and Fear are like control effects anyways so it makes sense they have these small numbers. Tyndel (talk) 14:50, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and converted all time values to use {fraction}, since I don't know of anything that lasts more than 1,000 seconds (16⅔ minutes). —Dr Ishmael 15:29, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: The miscellaneous 'affects' param

So I ran into Gadgeteer and promptly noticed the way skill facts are being used, for a single skill fact the code is:

{{skill fact|misc|alt={{retaliation}}|3 s|image=A.E.D..png}}

Yes, it does solve the problem when you need two icons, but alt should replace effect description/name and not call another template. I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing more and more of these, for skills or traits, so I've toyed around with {{User:Valento/Sandbox/Skill fact}} and {{User:Valento/Sandbox/Misc effect}} and I came up with a new parameter that solely serves this purpose: 'affects' (because I don't know how to call it lol).

The code above would change to:

{{skill fact|misc|alt=[[Retaliation]]|3 s|'''image=Retaliation.png|affects=A.E.D.'''}}

It displays the very same thing:

  [[Effect|Retaliation]]: 3 s

It's backwards compatible because it's a new parameter, if not specified then nothing appears... the idea is to display an image linking to "{{{affects}}}" page title.

Problem is, since icon and link are used twice (filename and url), if an icon is shared across two skills in the wiki, then we'd be linking to incorrect url or icon wouldn't be displayed. In that case it would require two params, or some sort of processing input (not sure if that's possible with wikicode). Thoughts? – Valento ^msg 14:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Or just don't link to any skill (current way of displaying it does not link to anywhere lol). – Valento ^msg 14:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It already supports this somewhat: Glyph of Elemental Power. The parameter is named attunement because originally this format was only seen with attunements. We would have to rename it and make it accept a full skill name. —Dr Ishmael 15:39, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest merging that param, but I'm afraid that categories may be affected somehow... but yeah, it's a nice idea. – Valento ^msg 15:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Added parameter linked skill and updated Gadgeteer. Also created [[template:skill icon tiny]] to easily support the non-borderless skill icon. —Dr Ishmael 16:08, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find an example, but what if a certain skill has specified icon parameter? Since you're using linked skill to look for the icon, if they differ it will display "Skill.png". – Valento ^msg 16:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

If linked skill could suport two values (separate by commas like id), there could be a way to provide both information: skill page and file page. – Valento ^msg 16:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It works just like template:skill icon - input is the skill's page name, template queries for the icon filename. —Dr Ishmael 16:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

That's awesome! Guess that settles it down. Now, on to {{Skill infobox}}'s "archived" ground-targetted parameter. :P – Valento ^msg 16:35, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

We can use skill for the parameter, I like simple parameter names.--Relyk ~ talk < 16:36, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I avoided that because it feels too ambiguous. —Dr Ishmael 17:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)