Talk:Darkrime Delves (story)

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Is it possible to enter this Area after you completed the Story? I want to go back there to get the achivements but after completing "Forging Steel", I only have the option to go back to the EoTN

After completing the entire story for the release, toggling Steel and Fire to active spawns a purple (achievement) mission start point near the Scrying Pool that puts you straight in Darkrime Delves. Nero9012 (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Story chapter number[edit]

The following query, searching for all Icebrood Saga story missions, shows that labelling this story step, Darkrime Delves (story) (in general all Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire but there's only one. Edit: forgot Forging Steel (story)), should not share the same chapter number as Shadow in the Ice does since it interferes with our sorting property chain.

 Has story chapterSort 1: StorylineSort 2: ChapterSort 3: SortkeySort 4: Step
Coming HomePrologue: Bound by Blood8001
Revels & RivalsPrologue: Bound by Blood8002
Bad Blood (Bound by Blood)Prologue: Bound by Blood8003
Deeper and DeeperPrologue: Bound by Blood8004
A Race to ArmsPrologue: Bound by Blood8005
Silence (story)Whisper in the Dark8101
What's Left BehindWhisper in the Dark8102
The Wind and Nothing MoreWhisper in the Dark8103
The InvitationWhisper in the Dark8104
Chasing GhostsShadow in the Ice8201
Still Waters Speaking (story)Shadow in the Ice8202
Lost Spirits FoundShadow in the Ice8203
The Hunt BeginsShadow in the Ice8204
Voice in the DeepShadow in the Ice8205
Forging Steel (story)Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire82.501
Darkrime Delves (story)Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire82.502
Pointed ParleyNo Quarter8301
Shoulder to ShoulderNo Quarter8302
Snapping SteelNo Quarter8303
Distract, Destroy, DistrustNo Quarter8304
TurnaboutNo Quarter8305
Behind Enemy LinesJormag Rising8401
Wrench in the WorksJormag Rising8402
A Simple NegotiationJormag Rising8403
Pantheon of the WildJormag Rising8404
One Charr, One Dragon, One ChampionJormag Rising8405
Primordus RisingChampions8501
Tidings and MisgivingsChampions8502
Defending TyriaChampions8503
Roaring FlamesChampions8504
Jormag's WorldChampions8505
Jormag's MadnessChampions8506
Wildfire (story)Champions8507
Frozen TideChampions8508
Flame vs. FrostChampions8509
Calm in the StormChampions8509.5
Dragonstorm (story)Champions85010
Champion's EndChampions85011

The question is: How should we label the intermediate episodes which have some prefix, e.g. Prologue or Visions of the Past. While the prologue is straight forward and can be set to chapter sort key 0, the intermediate episodes Visions of the Past, probably more to come, are a little bit tricky. Two solutions come into my mind:

  • Give them an own chapter number, however this would shift the following episodes and their numbers. E.g. No Quarter would then be labelled internally as episode 4 while externally it is in fact episode 3.
  • Give them a decimal number between the two episodes. E.g. Shadow in the Ice = 2, Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire = 2.5 and No Quarter = 3.

Both solutions require a manual adjustment when using it in a query, but I'm favouring the second one (setting Visions of the Past to intermediate decimal numbers) as it doesn't affect the normal episodes. Any thoughts? --Tolkyria (talk) 13:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course, there are two: Forging Steel (story) and Darkrime Delves (story). I somehow missed the first one, everything mentioned above holds for both missions. --Tolkyria (talk) 13:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Since they're manual additions to the infobox on each page, I'd go with
  • 1 = Prologue: Bound by Blood
  • 2 = Whisper in the Dark
  • 3 = Shadow in the Ice
  • 4 = Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire
  • 5 = No Quarter
My main reason being that people usually create the next stories by copypasting the previous one and adding one. I don't see it as a particular issue that it shifts it versus the ingame "numbering" (prologue = 0...) -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 15:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Honestly, that's exactly what I wanted to avoid, another LWS1 waterloo. Comparing the suggestion:
Chapter Your suggestion My suggestion Displayed text in smw result format templates
Prologue: Bound by Blood 1 0 Prologue: Bound by Blood
Whisper in the Dark 2 1 Episode 1: Whisper in the Dark
Shadow in the Ice 3 2 Episode 2: Shadow in the Ice
Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire 4 2.5 Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire
No Quarter 5 3 Episode 3: No Quarter
<upcoming episode> 6 4 Episode 4: <Upcoming episode>
<upcoming vision> 7 4.5 <upcoming vision>
Compare also the implementation in a smw result format template:
  • Your suggestion: full #switch that needs to be updated each release, depending when we get a normal episode or a vision episode.
  • My suggestion: simple #switch that for 0 and any X.5 suppresses the prefix and others uses the prefix "Episode" and the chapter number.
I hope this somehow explains my reasoning. If you still disagree, well, then go for it (it probably can't get worse than LWS1). In the end it's more important to have a proper sorting and not mixing up chapters. --Tolkyria (talk) 15:50, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
What usage exactly are you wanting to have a switch on this parameter for anyway? You don't usually ask random questions so I'm sure there is a point. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 20:44, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
First, I edited (temporary fix!) the chapter number to 2.5 for Forging Steel (story) and Darkrime Delves (story) to provide proper sorting in the meanwhile, e.g. required here: Scrap of Icebrood Saga Mastery#Rewarded by
I'm using the chapter number to add the prefix "Episode <number>" in front of the episode name, e.g. in the following template {{Rewarded by result format}}. There the following code (here simplified) is used:
{{#switch: {{{Has story storyline number|}}}
  <!-- Personal story    -->  | 1 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * Chapter {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
  <!-- LWS 1             -->  | 2 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | {{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
            <!-- Flame and Frost: The Razing       -->  |  6 = * Episode 3: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Flame and Frost: Retribution      -->  |  8 = * Episode 4: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Last Stand at Southsun            -->  | 10 = * Episode 6: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Dragon Bash 2013                  -->  | 11 = * Episode 7: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Sky Pirates of Tyria              -->  | 12 = * Episode 8: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Bazaar of the Four Winds          -->  | 13 = * Special Event: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Cutthroat Politics                -->  | 14 = * Episode 9: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Queen's Jubilee                   -->  | 15 = * Episode 10: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Clockwork Chaos                   -->  | 16 = * Episode 11: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- SAB: Back to School               -->  | 17 = * Episode 12: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Tower of Nightmares               -->  | 21 = * Episode 13: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Nightmares Within             -->  | 22 = * Episode 14: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Fractured                         -->  | 23 = * Episode 15: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Nightmare Is Over             -->  | 24 = * Special Event: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Origins of Madness            -->  | 25 = * Episode 16: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- The Edge of the Mists (release)   -->  | 26 = * Episode 17: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Escape from Lion's Arch           -->  | 27 = * Episode 18: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Battle for Lion's Arch            -->  | 28 = * Episode 19: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
            <!-- Battle for Lion's Arch: Aftermath -->  | 29 = * Episode 20: {{{Has story chapter|}}}}} }}
  <!-- LWS 2             -->  | 3 
  <!-- LWS 3             -->  | 5
  <!-- LWS 4             -->  | 7 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#ifexpr: 0 = {{{Has story chapter number|}}} |Special Event|Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}} }}
  <!-- The Icebrood Saga -->  | 8 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
                                                                         | 0 | 1.5 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 4.5 | 5.5 | 6.5 | 7.5 = {{{Has story chapter|}}} <!-- Prologue and intermediate Visions of the Past already using a prefix -->
                                                                         | #default = Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
                                                                        }} }}
  <!-- HoT               -->  | 4 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#ifexpr: (0 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 6)|Act I|{{#ifexpr: (7 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 10)|Act II|{{#ifexpr: (11 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 14)|Act III|{{#ifexpr: (15 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 16)|Act IV|}}}}}}}} }}
  <!-- PoF               -->  | 6 = {{#if: {{{Has story chapter|}}} | * {{#ifexpr: (0 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 4) |Act I|{{#ifexpr: (5 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 8) |Act II|{{#ifexpr: (9 <= {{{Has story chapter number|}}}) AND ({{{Has story chapter number|}}} <= 13) |Act III|}}}}}} }} }} }}
Yes, this is a monstrosity, but since we already have this, it's pretty much copy-paste now.
So we let's look at the chapter number for the individual story lines:
  1. 1Yes Personal story: straight forward
  2. 0No Living world season 1: no idea, but I don't recommend to adapt this after all the years. Compare with Braham#Story involvement
  3. 1Yes Living world season 2: straight forward
  4. 1Yes HoT: a little bit tricky to get the individual acts
  5. 1Yes Living world season 3: straight forward
  6. 1Yes PoF: a little bit tricky to get the individual acts
  7. 1Yes Living world season 4: straight forward
  8. 0No Icebrood Saga: a little bit tricky with the Prologue and the Visions
Hence the Icebrood Saga #switch would look like the following based on your suggestion:
{{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
 | 1
 | 4
 | <unknown upcoming vision> = {{{Has story chapter|}}} <!-- Prologue and intermediate Visions of the Past already using a prefix -->
 | #default = Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
}}
and based on my suggestion:
{{#switch: {{{Has story chapter number|}}} 
 | 0 | 1.5 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 4.5 | 5.5 | 6.5 | 7.5 = {{{Has story chapter|}}} <!-- Prologue and intermediate Visions of the Past already using a prefix -->
 | #default = Episode {{{Has story chapter number|}}}: {{{Has story chapter|}}}
}}
The underlying problem is that for personal stories and the LWS 2, 3, 4 the chapter number is a sort property and a display property, while for LWS1, HoT, PoF and now Icebrood Saga it's only a sort property and hence has to be adjusted with a #switch.
Ultimately, as I already said, it doesn't matter, as long as the chronological order is preserved. --Tolkyria (talk) 21:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Jeez wild ride, I can't believe we have a template that formats story results into things like Bag of Verdant Brink Supplies. If making it use 0.5's and other fractions makes it easier for you, go ahead.
Originally I conceived this set of properties as a nice way to sort the results of the personal story when I was verifying all of the dialogue. Yes I know LWS1 sequence is a mess, I had real trouble figuring out which steps followed each other when i manually numbered them to get the updates to appear in sequence later. -Chieftain AlexUser Chieftain Alex sig.png 23:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Glad you got my point, at least to some extent, I somehow failed to structure it properly.
It's brand new (see Gilded Strongbox#Rewarded by for a really impressive list), Doodle's story pages bot edits finally motivated me to push these changes to {{rewarded by}} (together with Adventure rewards, based on your type bot edits). However, the idea of sorting story steps originates to the template {{Personal story chart}}.
Regarding LWS1: I by no means questioned the chapter order, which you added ~4 years after their release, based on this time gap and the missing structure of the LWS1 it's definitely the best you could have done. Due my more or less copy-paste code I think we are totally fine, luckily nothing should change there ever again.
Conclusion: If noone else contradicts, I suggest to set the chapter number for Visions of the Past to decimal X.5 numbers. Here, for Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire, released between the episode 2 Shadow in the Ice and episode 3 No Quarter, I suggest to set it to 2.5 for the story steps Forging Steel (story) and Darkrime Delves (story) (as I already did as an intermediate fix). I think it also mirrors the dev's intention of an intermediate episode that doesn't feature the player's character but other character's perspectives. --Tolkyria (talk) 23:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)