Guild Wars 2 Wiki talk:Color schemes/Archive 1

You're welcome

Source is here. Those colors are the ones used as background inside the Professions Reveal flash file. Chriskang 19:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks - I was wondering where those colours were used. They're a bit dark to use as backgrounds for tables, navs, infoboxes, and the like on the wiki, but I'm sure we can find suitable variants when they're needed. pling 19:43, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The text in the swf is written in white so these background colors have to be dark if you want to be able to read. As you said, with black text we'll need lighter colors. Chriskang 19:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Move to mainspace

I disagree with it. I don't see the need or the point in having an article showing the profession colors for the GW1W at the mainspace; I also don't agree with having a list of profession colors that doesn't match with the profession colors used at the skill lists. We have at least half a dozen user pages and discussions about color schemes; when we agree with one, then I think we should create a "Color formatting" article or something along these lines, not now. Erasculio 20:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The page needs updating, yes. I thought the nav colours would be the most useful. I agree that GWW colours should be removed. I moved it here because it would see better use as a kind of public sandbox at the moment, or an early formatting-page-in-progress - I wasn't quick/unlazy enough to update changed colours myself. Since I've seen it linked on a couple of talk pages already, it would be worthwhile if the page was actually accurate and up-to-date; that's what wiki communities are best at doing, and that's what the project namespace is for. pling 20:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

This could definitely serve as some form of formatting guide, in case contributors wish to create something new that supposedly follows other such designs. A quick colour overview is fine, but not required at the same time. I'm in dubio about the move. - Infinite - talk 20:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

It belongs here. Aqua (T|C) 16:50, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I firmly think this should stay here. This should be public sandbox at the moment. - Lucian 3:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Guardian

What placeholder colors should we use? I'm leaning towards GWW:Monk colors... Thoughts? Aquadrizzt (talk)(contribs) 15:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Monk colours, but darker should do fine. - Infinite - talk 16:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Color Scheme

→ moved from User talk:Erasculio

Cuz I know you care: here is my personal choice of personal schemes. For the warrior and ranger ones, I finally compared them in saturation and in color to the rest of the ones I wanted to use, and I think they work fine compared to the others. Guardian colors are a direct rip from Venom (with a lightened lighter for the secondary lighter). And then you already <3 the necromancer and ele colors... What do you think? :) Aqua (talk|contribs) 04:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks perfect to me : ) Erasculio 09:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Almost perfect, the Necromancer colours -imo- should be generally darker than the ranger (as per official wallpaper art). The rest *is* perfect. :P - Infinite - talk 13:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the ranger and necro ones need to be more different; it'd be easy to confuse the two. pling 21:48, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. - Lucian 23:27, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

the wallpapers depict deeper more earthly colours for the necro and ranger. Venom20 23:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but wiki colors should be brightish. The ones such as your V2 and some of your V3s look like you placed a gray filter on the colors. Why can't it be pretty in addition to presenting the profession? And am I correctly reading that the necromancer colors should be darker (either literally or hue-wise)... Aqua (talk|contribs) 03:44, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Slot Skill Utility   Doom   Summon Bone Minions

Slot Skill Utility   Doom   Summon Bone Minions

Slot Skill Utility   Doom   Summon Bone Minions

Slot Skill Utility   Doom   Summon Bone Minions

Slot RANGER Utility   Point-Blank Shot   Serpent's Strike

(Reset indent) Thoughts on any of the above? Aqua (talk|contribs) 03:49, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I always wondered, what was the reason for 2 light colours? Venom20 03:51, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

So that way in tables you can see a difference... The skill lists are a prime example of this. (It's based off the concept that sometimes in tables (i.e. excel) you have the first row one color and the next row a slightly different color.) Aqua (talk|contribs) 03:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, seems un-needed to me. I prefer keeping it simple and only having the three Venom20 05:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I just took another gander at the current skill tables with their 2 tiered light system, thinking that perhaps I could learn to appreciate it. I can't, it looks ridiculous and arbitrary. If we're going to implement a 2 tiered system so that people can distinguish one line from the next (don't think it's really needed, I mean how many horizontal cells will these tables have anyways? 3?) then the 2 light colours should be interchanged per line, not per grouping of weapon or hand or whatever. Also, I don't know about Era, but this discussion should probably be moved somewhere else. Venom20 05:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) First, thanks to Aqua for making this section at my talk page; I'm busy these days, so I would have missed the discussion otherwise. I have moved the discussion here (since no one has moved this article away) just so it's easier to find for everyone else, but I appreciate being told about it : )
Second, regarding the skill tables - "how many horizontal cells will these tables have anyways? 3?": I don't understand that comment. The skill tables have 25 or more rows, I don't see how you could possibly say they have only three. Besides, I would rather not have to go back to the beginning of a previous discussing each time we discuss a next step; if we eventually go all the way back to the June 2010 discussion about the main page every time we try to change a color scheme, we won't ever get something done here.
Third, I really like the necromancer and elementalist colors. Looking at the skill tables, I think it's easy enough to tell the difference between the ranger and the necromancer colors - the necromancer color has a tint closer to blue, being between the ranger and the guardian (take a look: ranger, necromancer, guardian). If we were to change a color, though, I would rather change the ranger color than the necromancer one. Erasculio 10:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

WTF why does all text show up like this? --The Holy Dragons 10:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

? Erasculio 10:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I fixed it. (the text) , you forgot the / @ </table> ^^ --The Holy Dragons 10:38, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Horizontal cells would be cells along the horizon not cells along the vertical (ie number of columns would be number of vertical cells). Also, perhaps I was sleeping during the discussion, where was this dual light scheme discussion? As I understand, the light colours are used to distinguish between rows. This male sense when the row length is large so that as you move along a row horizontally you do not lose your place. Currently these tables (these refers to skill tables) currently have three cells of depth to a row (or length depending on your orientation). They have weapon, hand, skill. Firstly, there is not enough depth needed for a dual colour system (IMO). Secondly, the purpose for dual colour systems in spreadsheet softwares is so that each row is a different colour, not each grouping of rows. IMO dual lights need to be fixed so that their purpose is correctly served (not my first choice because it would look ugly as hell), or the dual light colour system needs to go (my preferred option). Venom20 12:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

So your argument is that we are not following the convention of spreadsheet softwares, so we need to either change to a different (and worse) system, or remove the dual light colors (which would on itself be a different and worse system)? Somehow that doesn't feel like a very convincing argument : P Erasculio 13:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) 3 and 5. - Infinite - talk 14:56, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Venom; the current use of dual light colours has limited function for the reasons he listed (as well as the fact that the white bordering makes good distinction between rows as well), but if people find use in them, then that's a good enough reason to keep it. 3 and 6 btw.(Xu Davella 15:38, 29 January 2011 (UTC))

Yes the white bordering makes a distinction, but it doesn't make enogh of a distinction IMO when everything has the same color background. Aqua (T|C) 16:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Dual color concepts can be discussed later. Are the color I have used in my sandbox (except for 2nd lighters) generally good for everyone? (With the exclusion of necromancer vs ranger... Everyone seems to like the other ones.) Aqua (T|C) 17:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

In regards to the colour selection, some feel too much like GW1 colours, which IMO is a shame. The professions all have their own newer colours (as can be seen in the wallpapers from guildwars2.com: warrior, elementalist, ranger. necromancer. Scroll to the bottom to see the wallpapers.). Here are my seperate comments. Your warrior colour selection is nice, I agree with this one. You have captured the yellow traditionally affiliated with the warrior, but you have also tinted it with a brown/orange akin to the colours in the wallpapers. I approve your warrior selection. You elementalist colours are also nice. They don't have as much red or pink as I would prefer (they seem to have more orange/salmon to me), but they do look nice together and I can appreciate seeing them on a page. Your necro colours remind me of GW1, as as one can see in the wallpapers I am referring to, the necromancer of GW2 does not have this feel to it. The green should be, IMO, deeper and as you put it, a slight grey filter. Lastly, the ranger is all wrong. They should have a more earthly shade of green (almost green-yellow and green-brown). I'm afraid currently I cannot get behind the necro and ranger presented here. Venom20 01:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I will start off by saying that I am 100% sick of the "It's on GWW, so it's clearly not good" argument. But I will refrain from discussing that. I see no reason to have some bright colors (like Ele and Guardian) and then some absolutely drab colors, like the ranger you were proposing. So: in order of profession

Elementalist - That red is inspired by the wallpaper and looks pretty much nothing like the red used on GWW.

Warrior - Everyone seems to like this one, me too. No other comment necessary.

Ranger - Why do the ranger colors *have* to be drab. I see no reason on a wiki to choose a pale grey-green-brown color when we could pick a nice color like the one I have above. And greens like the one I'm suggesting *are* present in the wallpaper.

Necromancer - I completely agree that this is very close to GWW, that it is too similar to the current ranger colors and that it doesn't reflect the current necromancer. I intend to change it to the third one, which uses more blue (and captures the essence of the wallpaper better).

Guardian - I came, I saw, I <3ed yours. I brought them into the color scheme. You clearly like them as do I, and everyone else seems to like them too.

This leaves us with three profession colors that everyone has been in agreement with since I brought this up (Elementalist, Guardian and Warrior). And then there is necromancer and ranger. In my opinion, the elementalist/guardian/warrior colors are all bright and saturated. The necromancer is dark (yet bright color intensity wise) but still saturated (which captures the essence of the profession without making it grey-ish). The ranger colors should follow suit on that. (Hypothetically) they should be full color and not brown (a little might help, a lot would detract from the finished product), and there are some very nice greens in the ranger wall paper. Aqua (T|C) 04:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

For the records, the current green color for necromancers is similar to the color seen in many skill icons, such as Ghastly Claws and Life Blast. That's not really a deep green, nor does it have a gray filter. Erasculio 06:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I actually find the depressing colours of the necromancer quite fitting imo. (Xu Davella 09:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC))

I would prefer if we would wait until all professions are revealed before we decide on any fixed color scheme. That way we can much better see what kind of color range is used as the original colors and what kind of color range is available for *our* selection. If we decide on colors now, we might have to change them sooner or later if our chosen color clashes too much with the one of a new profession.

Also, if possible, I would like to have completely new color schemes and not reuse schemes from GW1. poke | talk 22:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

You do have a point in that the current designs will be temporary until we see all professions, but at the same time we need some kind of color scheme for the currently existing skill lists and etc. While I don't expect the designs decided here to be permanent, they need to be useful for as long as it takes for us to know all professions (something which could take quite a while). Erasculio 22:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I am more than well aware that these colors are subject to change when we get other professions if the other professions are similar in color to the currently used colors. But I dislike extremely using GWW colors for GW2W. Its not a "GWW=bad" argument, its a "GWW colors do not reflect that this is a new game with new profession colors." Aqua (T|C) 02:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree, that is also my argument *against* GW1 templates/icons/content that is not directly applicable to GW2. New game, new colours. :) - Infinite - talk 14:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) So... Elementalist, Guardian and Warrior colors are all generally liked, and then we have 3rd necromancer and ranger? What do people think about that? Aqua (T|C) 02:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think we have a general consensus then. - Infinite - talk 11:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: After seeing this I think the borders either need to be all lighter variants (like the War and Ranger), or darker variants, like the other three. I can't believe I overlooked that. :) - Infinite - talk 11:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

whatever, they're just placeholders anyways. I'll voice true opinions further when all professions are released, and this topic is revisited. Venom20 14:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It's important to be consistent in colours, too. The current proposal has lighter borders on 2 of them and darker borders on the rest. - Infinite - talk 15:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The darker vs lighter doesn't matter, mostly what it is is more saturated. (Yellowish colors get whiter the more saturated they get.) Aqua (T|C) 17:13, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

EDIT/UPDATE: Added darker border colors. Aqua (T|C) 17:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Stunning, I'm game for implementation. - Infinite - talk 17:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Simplified or regular? Aqua (T|C) 17:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think simplified is better, because in looks they don't really differ that much. - Infinite - talk 18:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Placeholders so it doesn't matter, simplified I suppose. What's the definition of simplified? In other words, why are they called that? Is it because they're web safe colours? Venom20 18:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Web-safe and only 3 hex digits. - Infinite - talk 18:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I am going colour blind, aren't I? The borders or the simplified version are lighter again. /confused - Infinite - talk 19:25, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Dual Colors

As the discussion about two lighter colors does not pertain to the basic colors used, discussion of the two lighter colors vs a single lighter color can be brought up here. In the advocation for two lighter colors: compare the readability of the skill lists to the readability of the trait lists. (Trait and Skill for comparison.) In my opinion, dual content background colors helps make clear the separations between one section and another.
Aqua (T|C) 22:49, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I will attempt to explain myself further. I do not wish to attempt to dumb things down, but it appears that my logic is hard to follow. Correct me if I am incorrect, but there are 2 possible functions for a system containing dual light colours. The first reason is purely for ascetics, because people think that's pretty. The second reason is so that a reader of a table can follow the information along a horizontal line (this means they read from column to column along a path from left to right). Currently The second reason is not implemented. The current usage of a dual light system has segregated weapons from one another. Let us examine an arbitrary example since they are all the same. Let us look specifically at the list of elementalist skills. The top row is a header row, and will currently be ignored. Rows 2 through 6 all pertain to the staff weapon. The skill section of all these five rows are all sharing the same background colour. The background colour does not change until we get to rows 7 through 11. This second section of rows all share a separate background colour. Again, referring to my understanding of dual colours, this layout has nothing to do with enhanced legibility. Which, to me, means that it is currently implemented for ascetic reasons. If the purpose of the dual light colour was for enhanced legibility, then every row containing skills should be separated by a shade (technically that means that if we select two consecutive rows, call them k and k+1, then every row equating to k+2n will share the same shade, and every row equating to k+1+2n will contain the second shade (where k is a positive integer)). Currently, the tables with is small (speaking in terms of horizontal cells (ie number of columns)). The current skill table style (excluding the elementalist) has 3 columns (or three horizontal cells) and the trait table style has four horizontal cells. A dual light system is not practical as there is not enough horizontal width for a reader to lose his or her place reading from cell to cell. As already referred to, the trait table can be read with complete ease. As already mentioned. The current design of the talbe on GW2W includes white borders on the cells. This border helps to further segregate the cells, allowing for the enhanced legibility that I would assume is the intent. I apologize for the lengthy response (as I know I hate reading them myself), but I trust that this information was relayed better than some previous posts in this chain of topics. Also, it has been pointed out that there was an earlier discussion on this topic (dual light colours), would someone be so kind as to point me in the direction of this past conversation. I appear to have either missed it, or forgotten all about it. Venom20 02:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Never anywhere did I say every other row. I had intended the dual color thing to be used as every other section (i.e. soul reaping major-> color 1, soul reaping minor->color 2, blood rituals major-> color 1, etc.). Legibility is not really what I'm getting at, clarity is much more descriptive. (And the discussion above was the one I was referring to. That discussion is to discuss the color scheme, not whether or not dual colors are necessary. Aqua (T|C) 03:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

"If the purpose of the dual light colour was for enhanced legibility, then every row containing skills should be separated by a shade": Uh, you know, we are the Guild Wars 2 Wiki, not Guild Wars 2 Excel. Really doesn't matter that much if most spreadsheet software use different colors per row; the idea with the light colors here is to make it clear which rows are grouped into big sections, instead of just make clear where each row ends and the next begins (which, as you mentioned, the white borders already do). As things are, it's very easy to take a glance at the skill tables and realize which skills are grouped together as belonging to the same weapon and which are from different sets. Erasculio 06:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The use of the dual light colours is definitely not making it more difficult to read, but I agree that it is pretty much serving an aesthetic purpose. Might help if we got further input into this actually, as both sides seem to raise some equally valid points. Consensus by popular vote/agreement? (Xu Davella 09:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC))

Popular vote would get you nowhere. Wikis are founded and based on consensus. Aqua (T|C) 16:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

← moved to User talk:Lucian Shadowborn

I have a slight preference for dual-color. It makes it slightly easier to scan, it looks nice, and it's standard enough that I don't think people will be confused. Manifold 01:54, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Let's try to keep side arguments brief. I should have realised it earlier, but popular/majority rule is actually not how we should operate. The second quote you listed highlights this. Getting majority vote is fine, but you also have to seek resolution in all opinions that are brought to the table, otherwise the final decision will not be satisfactory. I would say more...(Xu Davella 02:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC))

I've already brought up what consensus is elsewhere; it doesn't need to be discussed here further. What does need to be discussed here further is, as I have said previously, the concept of implementing dual colors. Aqua (T|C) 02:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I concur to the notion that has just been made previous of my comment. I like the fact that, IMO, dual colors are "slightly easier to scan, it looks nice, and it's standard enough that I don't think people will be confused." - Lucian 2:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

A consistent colour for all navs/tables until we have a scheme to go

I know people are saying 'placeholder' and 'temporary' around colour section a bunch but Aqua (bless him/her) has been taking the colour selection fairly seriously. I'm not wild about some of the colours and there doesn't seem to be anything but randomness guiding the colour choices. On gww colour themes were used to differenciate article theme groups (items were all orangey, while all place ones were purple, skills green) which sort of applied some method to the madness. I'd like to use the theme based colour choices again, but until we have those groups sorted out could we please apply a standard colour to all navs and tables (outside of the profession specific stuff). For example we could use the profession/effect/race nav colours everywhere. Alternatively we could create some organisation groups and Aqua can go back to having fun picking colours. -- aspectacle  04:53, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

In reference to profession based colour selections, the reason that some people are saying that they are temporary/place holders is because the complete set of professions have yet to be revealed. Weapons are that orangery colours while armor is that blue colour. I agree that some of the other navs are arbitrary, and I'd be interested in hearing more about how to group what we currently have. Venom20 05:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

@Aspectacle: I would love to do that. It satisfies my normally un-manifested-"OCD." (I identify as male, btw.) After tomorrow, I will be back on the wiki editing normally, I'll begin work on color groupings then. :)

@Venom: yes, my color choices are still placeholders should stuff come up. But for now, why can't the wiki be pretty interim? (At least, that's my opinion.) Aqua (T|C) 05:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Addendum: I will not allow there to be only one bland blue-gray color on this wiki. That is all. ^.^ Aqua (T|C) 06:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Fine. As long as you don't make everything a variation on violently teal (ie the god nav). :P -- aspectacle  06:15, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I prefer a colourful wiki as well, as long as it is still tasteful. I also agree that CDE currently holds too many things. I have already brought this up here in regards to changing the effects nav. Although I will be firmly against multicolouring. IT still needs to be tasteful. Venom20 13:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Also if I may add, why are we limiting ourselves to web-safe colours? Most computers are able to run 16-bit colours and now 24-bit truecolours. Also, if one is able to run GW, then they have capabilities of displaying more that the 3-hex web-safe colours. Isn't it time we expand our horizons? Venom20 13:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) -wakes up- Hey, I said that yesterday!

I also think we should stick to 1 colour per object group/theme. The thing is though, as Aqua pointed out; we shouldn't let this restrict us from making the wiki look pretty interim.

I know the GWW system and I personally distaste colour scheme there. Everyone should feel free to start experimenting in their sandboxes with the various navs we have. :) - Infinite - talk 15:36, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Some progress is being made: User:Aquadrizzt/Sandbox/Colors. Please look at proposal and comment on my current groupings, and their assigned colors. Aqua (T|C) 22:47, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

For the records, IMO the color for the projects portal is very ugly : P I would prefer something less muted (and less brown). Erasculio 23:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Grouping is looking ok so far Aqua. You probably need to consider pets, npcs/vendors, monsters, consumables, collectables, environmental weapons. I think the weapons orange is going to be too strong for large in page tables. I think conditions, boons and effects are game mechanics stuff and should be in the same colour space as at least each other and possibly the same as skills/traits. HOM I think fits best with items. -- aspectacle  23:58, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Should weapons and armor (and probably all items) use the armor color? I agree that the weapon color is a bit too strong currently. HoM should, atleast for now, maintain its own color scheme. For pets I want to use a subset of ranger (and the second pet profession colors) but might wind up being like skills or traits. Environmental weapons should use the weapon color (whatever is decided upon) IMO. As per boons + conditions, could boons be light-ish green while conditions be brown-ish green? Aqua (T|C) 00:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I think there are going to be so many weapons, armors (and town clothing?), consumables and collectables that they could each sustain their own colours within an items colour space. Boons and conditions I think could share the same colour because there'll only ever be a handful of either of those. -- aspectacle  00:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

In conclusion: for overarching colors:

• Game mechanics are green
• Pre-release stuff is #BCA
• Lore and in-game stuff (orders, dragons, religions/gods, etc.) are teal ish.
• Items are orange.

As with all of these, sub-varieties of a color can be used to differentiate various aspects of the same general concept. What do you guys think?Aqua (T|C) 00:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

As much as it is a working system, the game mechanics are going to confuse people with the ranger colours, the items are going to confuse people with the warrior (maybe), etc, etc. I think using colours outside of the profession spectrum are best for now. - Infinite - talk 11:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Erm, the profession spectrum eats up all colors *except* gray scale, brown, purple and pure yellow. (And gray scale might be on its way out too.) I don't think it is possible to not use colors outside of the profession spectrum without getting a horrifically dull, bright or weird looking wiki. (In addition, I don't feel that the colors are too close. Warrior is more yellow than items, and ranger is significantly more saturated than the proposed colors, in addition to being more yellow as well.) Aqua (T|C) 22:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Suppose I should throw my hat into the ring. It's still a WiP as I'm not convinced that I like the dragon/religion/order colour I have chosen, but it's a start. Venom20 14:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Thief Color Scheme

Slot	THIEF
Utility

Seen here. Any problems with it? Aqua (T|C) 01:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

None here. Eive 01:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The thief's colours aren't even revealed yet. And personally I am under the impression it lies closer to brown. :) - Infinite - talk 10:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I have the problem with it that it is far too gray; we usually use such colors for common things, so having a profession color that resembles the common thing is bad.. poke | talk 13:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. I believe infinite had the right idea with mentioning coppers and rusts (elsewhere). But we'll most likely have to wait for the official release. Venom20 14:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree, waiting is the best solution right now. We have a week till we now what color it is. :) - Lucian 16:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

These were intended to be placeholders (though I wrote that, but w/e). Anyway, it would be an interesting predicament if it turned out that the thief *is* grayscale. We would have to do a new way of common colors. Though yeah, best to wait IMO. Aqua (T|C) 20:29, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thieves

So, we have several different options (and no Eras and Infi, I did not miss your discussion on "Talk:List of thief skills"). We could do rust colors, as seen in demo, blood red (intense red colors) as seen in skill icons, or we could do heavy grayscale. I personally would prefer to *not* use grayscale and would greatly prefer a set of deep, blood reds if possible. Thoughts? Aqua (T|C) 21:27, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

As I was tweaking them, Pling said it must be colours which keep the links clearly readable and I agree with that statement. - Infinite - talk 21:29, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Put up a colour palette so we have something to discuss. Personally I still like the colour based on black because it is clearly different from the other professions and I'd rather have an odd colour for the one 'any' skill than a strange one for the thief. -- aspectacle  21:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

That is the current colour scheme. - Infinite - talk 21:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of the plum - it clashes with the very bright red we've seen in the skill icons. :P Also we've only see those website colours on the mouse over on the professions flash animation - so I don't think it is a great choice. A brown-red might be more appropriate. -- aspectacle  22:08, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Used to be brown red, but that was also not readable enough. It's like a tug of war. :P - Infinite - talk 23:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

See what I mean? - Infinite - talk 23:16, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Give thief something like the ele colours and move the ele into orange? (grey is easier. ;) See User:Aspectacle/Sandbox. -- aspectacle  23:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I could potentially make the last version here more "rusty" and it'd be even more in-line with skill icons. Though it's already quite close. I agree that grey is easier, but we want to try and leave grey free for common profession colours, etc. - Infinite - talk 00:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The text color on the "Presenting the Thief" page looks pink. Would pink work? --'Mai Yi' {TC} 00:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, I think the best option is to change the color of the common skills and keep grayscale for the thief. Erasculio 00:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I still agree with this approach, but it never hurts to see what the other options are. -- aspectacle  01:52, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Erasculio. The rust and the ele color are just way to similar (in my opinion). - Lucian 17:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Why would we use grey when the thief's colour isn't grey? As for different professions' colours being similar - similar doesn't mean indistinguishable. We use greens for rangers and necros. On GWW, we used blues for monk and dervish (just see gw1:Quick access links for an overview of colours). An orangey elementalist and a purpley-red thief won't be mixed up easily, provided we get the right oranges and the right purpley-reds. pling 17:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I think both this and greyscale are OK. But of course this will cause some confusions with the color of elementalists. Glastium 17:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think the last table up here is distinctive enough and accurate enough. - Infinite - talk 18:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

How about this color schema closest to the released color (might still be a little too bright?); and btw tbh "We don't use official colors" is the dumbest s*** I have ever read on an so called official game wiki! Atmu 19:06, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, not all official colours are viable colours for tables and many users objected against using them as base. I can't remember if I was one of said users. - Infinite - talk 19:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, see GWW1: All colors used are close to the (originally) released profession's colors. But using a completely different color although a close color is available seems just idiotic. Atmu 19:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

A less bright pink might work. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 19:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Atmu: Here you can see designs based on the official colours. I don't think the ranger and necromancer colours are different enough, but the rest? - Infinite - talk 19:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

"Why would we use grey when the thief's colour isn't grey?": what color is this? Erasculio 20:21, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The .xml file says a shade of purple, the skills a shade of rusty red, which is what was being pointed out. - Infinite - talk 20:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. There are conflicting sources for the thief's colour - but the concept art is, imo, the least reliable. Ideally, we need to find out what the colour actually is... (I don't think it's pink, though. That's probably reserved for the mesmer.) pling 20:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

So why not make Thieves purple and Mesmers pink? --'Mai Yi' {TC} 21:01, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

@Mai Yi: because we are not arbitrarily picking colors. (I will be generating my blood red color set shortly; watch here for updates). Aqua (T|C) 21:03, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

...but purple is the GW1 mesmer color. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 21:04, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I still think the official xml colour is best.

Slot	THIEF
Utility

No? - Infinite - talk 21:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

More suitable than hot pink. :) I think that blood red is being overstated as the skill colour. If you look at the icons and compare them to how colour is used for the other professions the predominant background colour and feel is black and white with the reds used to simply highlight and stop it from being monotone.

I think with racial colours to pick (charr might suit grey/black better) and two more professions to come we shouldn't be too worried about getting this completely right now. The plum colour is fine even if it doesn't entirely match the bright clean tone of the other colours we've picked so far. -- aspectacle  21:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

@Infinite: Imo nope :/ looks like your 1st one. "ranger and necromancer colours are different enough" - why are you even trying to differ them? Is there some crazy copyright issue preventing the usage of anet's colors? (I highly doubt that, since anet is promoting GWW themselves.) So please let us use the more official in-game colors seen in-game already here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncwx5laleMo (notice: thief = pink != grey). This will make things far more intuitive :) @Erasculio: It's grey, however I like to see the colors based upon the colors used on guildwars2.com (font) and the in-game colors. Quite frankly there will be the final profession related colors (as seen). Atmu 21:36, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Atmu, these are the official colours ArenaNet uses for the professions themselves. I'm not trying to differ them actually, but many arguments claim they are easily confused. I think it's not that confusing, personally. - Infinite - talk 21:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) (Edit conflict) @Atmu: We are not ANet. That being said, we try to make sure that color palettes between professions are definitive enough that they can be recognized as being "profession x." Back to actual discussion: I have made two different schemes, both using websafe, one using blood-ish colors, and one using grayscale. Any comments on them; found here. Aqua (T|C) 21:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Can't read the link on the second one and again, grey should be utmost last resort. - Infinite - talk 22:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I like the purple-pinkish one. The gray one should probably be left for common. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 22:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Atmu, I don't think Infinite meant that our colours should be "different enough" to Anet's colours, but that the ranger colour should be "different enough" to the necro colour. pling 22:09, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

nec	thief	ele	wammo :)	ranger	guardian	x	x

Touche. I just looked up the .xml and I can tell you these ^ are the colors used on the semi-transparent brush stroke behind the profession class text appearing when you hover a character. Plain they look different. However these are not the actually in-game colors (based on footage seen) :/ Should we really determine colors now, or shall we wait until public beta shows us explicit in-game colors thus a better base for decisions? (besides only a daltonian couldn't distinguish those ^ colors :P) Atmu 23:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Official colours versus proposed colours. I think it works just fine for tables. If this is still not desireable (which I would not quite grasp, but mehh) then I also say we wait till we have actual gameplay available. - Infinite - talk 23:21, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The colors discussed here are intended to be merely placeholders (they may stay or they may not after the game is released). However, discussing colors now also allows consistency among the color schemes used across the wiki. PS: Infi, check my new colors..., not sure if you saw them. Aqua (T|C) 23:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, Infi, your colors are a bit...drab... I think. Aqua (T|C) 23:26, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Drab may be, but we're not exactly looking for flamboyance here. I think with regards to the official colours, that's the closest to "official" we are going to get. - Infinite - talk 23:28, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

As for your current proposal on thief colours, they're a bit stern to the eyes to me (though that may be browser-related, my gamma is default). - Infinite - talk 23:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey, guess what I found! The problem :D What official is official? Currently there are 3 different officials. * Font * .xml * in-game. Tell me what colors are the most official? xD Atmu 23:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Combine all three together and then it is triple official. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 23:41, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) .xml until the game is out, I figured. - Infinite - talk 23:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

/agree Atmu 23:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) We actually have multiple sources for "official" color. We have...

• The wallpapers.
• The header images.
• The highlighted images.
• The skill icons.
• The character selection screen.
• The .xml used at the font at the GW2 Professions flash image (which IMO are the worst colors among this list).

I don't remember a discussion here stating that, among those, the last are the real "official" colors. I do remember multiple discussions in which the current color schemes used for professions was chosen (even if just as a placeholder) despite not being the same as the .xml colors. Erasculio 00:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The thief wallpaper has plum and blood red in it. It's not just grey at all. Besides being a bit depressed, the colours I proposed are not mismatched, let alone inaccurate. - Infinite - talk 01:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Atmu: I would recommened, to understand how we got here, reading the archive of this page and on the Necromancer lists of skills and traits. And back to discussion: I updated the one in mine again. Less painful hopefully. Aqua (T|C) 01:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Slot ELEMENTALIST Utility

Slot THIEF Utility

I provided the elementalist for comparison. Thoughts? Aqua (T|C) 01:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

There is enough of a difference to see that one is Thief and the other is Ele. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 01:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If you add the mesmer, however... To "The thief wallpaper has plum and blood red in it": the prominent color here hardly is red or plum : P Erasculio 02:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a concept art. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 02:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Erasculio: Were you addressing mine at all? (The mesmer would be more purple, and, bluntly, we'll cross that bridge if and when we get to it.) I would prefer to use the blood red colors found in the highlighted prof reveal image or the skill icons. Aqua (T|C) 02:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Eras, that wallpaper has a LOT of plum in it. - Infinite - talk 02:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

That is, assuming you were focussing on the bg, not the thief himself. - Infinite - talk 02:26, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) @Infinite: still, the most prominent color there is far from being plum or red. Same here and skill and even here. In all of those, the most prominent color is clearly gray. I understand the concern about worrying with the common colors, but that's why...

@Aqua: I won't buy the "we'll cross that bridge if and when we get to it" argument. We have no table of common skills, yet the main argument against using greyscale is how it would be used for such thing. Your colors are not ugly, but I'm worried that a player who looks at the thief is never going to relate it to that color scheme, unlike the other professions.

IMO, the best we could compromise with would be something like...

Slot
Utility

Although I would prefer a purely greyscale scheme myself. Erasculio 02:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how the dominant colour is not plum. Take a closer look, the backgrounds on all thief art are plum and a darker variant of plum. The .xml colour is purple-plum and the skill icons are blood red to plum (usually). The thief's dominant colour is, simply put, plum and not greyscale. The tango icon was designed in grey because that was the placeholder colour at that time. It should be plum and I think the colours in my sandbox are perfect for the thief, whether that implies a biased argument or not. - Infinite - talk 02:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Erasculio: there is no middle ground on the greyscale vs plum/red color. Aesthetically, the combination is bad. On another note, I agree with Infi, the plum color is present in a large variety of thief art. PS: A player from GW who used GWW would associate grayscale with common. The pink is (coincidentally) somewhat similar to the pink used for the assassin on GW. I am also very much against changing the common color from something like greyscale to some very specific color like pink or brown. And if you're argument against mine is that it might be too similar to the mesmer, well, we'll find out soon enough I'm sure. Aqua (T|C) 02:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"The tango icon was designed in grey because that was the placeholder colour at that time": because grey was seen as the dominant color in the same wallpaper you now claim is mostly plum. Unless you mean most thief art is a plum so dark it's black, I don't know how you can say plum is the dominant color, instead of grey.

"I am also very much against changing the common color from something like greyscale to some very specific color like pink or brown. And if you're argument against mine is that it might be too similar to the mesmer, well, we'll find out soon enough I'm sure": if we are using very similar colors schemes for different things, then there is no reason to not use greyscale for the thief and a different greyscale for common skills (which IMO is pointless, since all common skills in the game are either downed skills - which have strong colors - or environmental skills, which could have a color of their own). If we are not using very similar color schemes for different things, then we will have a problem between elementalist, mesmer and thief. Creating a problem now only to solve it later is not a good idea, especially if leaving this pink will lead people to pick an odd color for mesmers because the thief is already similar to purple (I wouldn't be surprised if someone now claimed that the predominant color here is brown). Erasculio 04:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll take the problem of the possibility of the thief being too similar to mesmer later than the problem of thief being almost exactly like common now. (Besides, ele is more orange, thief is darker and mesmer is more blue.) Aqua (T|C) 04:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Black is not a colour, it's a plum-black gradient, though. Grey is not part of that gradient. Hence. You also should refrain from implied personal attacks such as your last comment. - Infinite - talk 04:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest that, due to progressively rising tension between us, we take a break from this discussion for a little? Aqua (T|C) 04:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) "Black is not a colour, it's a plum-black gradient": problem solved, let's use black, since it's part of a plum gradient : P Sorry if you read that as a personal attack, but my intention was to point how there is no objective point of view here - is there any way to objectively prove to you that most of the thief art is grey? Because "it looks mostly grey to me" is IMO as bad an argument as "it looks mostly plum to me".

"I'll take the problem of the possibility of the thief being too similar to mesmer later than the problem of thief being almost exactly like common now": so change common, or change thief to a greyscale not so similar to the current common. We shouldn't apply a solution that we know will create a problem soon.

I don't really think we need a break, but I'm curious to hear more people's opinion. Truth be said, I'm more worried about what the impact of this will be when choosing the mesmer color than with the thief color (hopefully I won't ever see it after it's chosen). Erasculio 04:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Colourpicker says hi. And with plum-black gradient I mean every colour up till black. The darkest shade of grey. - Infinite - talk 04:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I would like to say, let's break. But if you two want to continue, I'll continue as well. Erasculio, you were in agreement with the "these colors are only placeholder and are subject to change as further professions are revealed." If thief turns out to be too close to mesmer, we can shift stuff around. Aqua (T|C) 05:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I cbf to read it all, but i liked the xml one. Mesmer->Pink, Elementalist->"salmon colour'd", Thief->Plum --Neil • 08:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Colourpicker says hi": ah, right. So you will take that as "objective proof", as I have said? Here it is, using the wallpaper image, the icon for Twisting Fangs and the header from the Thief article at the official website:

eae8e9	bcbabb	d1cdce	bdbbbc	a19fa0	121212	232323	abaaa8	f8f8f8	474344	312f30	0f0f11	8c8c8c	7a7879	7e7c7d	4d4b4e	837d7f	7e7c7d	cccacb	938f90	a5a1a2	aea59e	0e0e10	111113	4e4e4e	646464	202020	cacac8	3f3d3e	cbc7c8	d9d7d8	c3c1c2	aaa8ab	9d9d9f	c5c1c2	d7d7d7
7a7174	292323	6a605e	68615b	6d6864	402d31	8f8385	2b2726	393532	453f41	0a0605	8e8986	d4ccca	3d232c	25130f	6a6359	371023	4a4945	32312d	2f2b28	625c60	484445	8d8787	a5a09c
f2f2f2	cacaca	aaa8a9	cbc9ca	201a1a	1c1618	221c1c	1d1717	c5c5c5	27282a	acaaab	f7f7f7	1e1319	302b27	070604	0b090a	110c09	2d2522	161415	080607	292526	0a0605	adb1ba	31252f	222021	8c7376	0b0706	110f12	8a888d	0d0908	6b5d5a	897576	464040	777171	4b4b4b	040308	302f2d	9496a2	9c9492

So, now that I have proved how this color isn't this color (my, what a surprise!) and how the dominant color on the thief images is greyscale, not plum... There is no reasonable argument to use plum instead of greyscale. It makes absolutely no sense to use a color that we know for a fact is similar to the mesmer color under the premise that the mesmer has not been officially announced yet and that we will solve that problem later; any half decent solution would avoid creating a problem at all. Erasculio 12:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If we now remove the colours and tints we can not possibly use:

eae8e9	bcbabb	d1cdce	bdbbbc	a19fa0	abaaa8
8c8c8c	7a7879	7e7c7d	837d7f	cccacb	938f90
a5a1a2	aea59e	cacac8	cbc7c8	d9d7d8	c3c1c2
aaa8ab	9d9d9f	c5c1c2	d7d7d7	7a7174	8f8385
8e8986	d4ccca	8d8787	a5a09c	cacaca	aaa8a9
cbc9ca	c5c5c5	acaaab	adb1ba	9496a2	9c9492

Note how much grey scale appears to be left (yes I did remove the blood reds, the deep plums and the other non-greyscale colours that are too dark). This is all not actually greyscale. If it was greyscale, the hex would repeat itself in pattern like 888888, b4b5b6, 646362 or a9a9a9.

In fact the only useable ACTUAL greyscale you provided are: 8c8c8c, d7d7d7, cacaca and c5c5c5. All other colours are in different gradients, with the exceptions of adb1ba and 9496a2, which are a shade of cool grey.

And maybe plum was not the actual name of the colour, it just caught on amongst us as the colour we all had in mind by then (save you). I suppose your flamboyant side prefers cardinal (which is a shade of red meets violet), though that's also not exactly the colour + gradient it is supposed to be. Excuse me for not having a degree in colour recognition and full knowledge of shades and tints.

To cut a long discussion short; does anyone OTHER than Eras object to using the collectively named plum-gradient colours for the thief? (You should recognize that line.) Because grey should be saved for common stuff, not including common skills as there is only one a this stage. (And seriously, I didn't point out how your "grey" was also nowhere near the wallpaper art's/skill icons'/reveal image's background, did I? It's good you turned that into greyscale or I would've stated it bluntly; what you appear to be seeing is not grey.) - Infinite - talk 14:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"though that's also not exactly the colour + gradient it is supposed to be": out of curiosity, where is the "color + gradient it is supposed to be" on the table above showing the colors from the thief image?

"Because grey should be saved for common stuff, not including common skills": could you please point to me where is the consensus behind that discussion? Because otherwise prepare for another long discussion about which color we should use for common skills. And since that's your only argument against greyscale...

(Oh, and Infinite, I wonder if you will soon say you would rather have me out of the way from your discussion as well ;) Erasculio 15:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay then, let's get that common colour discussion started! What colour do you propose for inter-profession indication? You know, one that works and doesn't look like any of the other profession colours. Greyscale is safe, which is why we should use it for common. Why? Because ArenaNet hasn't actually released any images on the official site in greyscale, which means it's free and unique enough. - Infinite - talk 15:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"you know, one that works and doesn't look like any of the other profession colours": greyscale looks a lot like the thief colors. Hence, by your own words, we cannot use greyscale for common skills. Next suggestion, please? Erasculio 15:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

You're basing that on a quick glance at 1 piece of concept art. Everything in-game proves you wrong about greyscale looking like the thief colours. Continue, please. - Infinite - talk 15:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

So this and this and this don't "look like" greyscale to you? Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "everything in-game"? Because so far, it's actually "nothing in-game" which would say that the thief color doesn't look like greyscale. Erasculio 16:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Character creation, most skills, the icons, etc, etc. Everything indicates it's not a greyscale. - Infinite - talk 16:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

It's funny that I show you skill icons very similar to greyscale and you reply saying that the skill icons indicate the thief colors are not similar to greyscale. I wonder why is it that you are just claiming things, why I am showing you things. Erasculio 16:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Because what you show me is not greyscale. It may sound weird, but have you considered an eye test? I can't tell you they're greyscale as they aren't. :\ - Infinite - talk 16:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, so your best argument against the images I linked above being similar to greyscale are personal attacks? Well played, Infinite. I'm surprised you didn't just call me "a clearly BRAINDEAD person who feels intelligent enough to speak for the community as an indivdual" (because you know, "You should recognize that line"). Erasculio 16:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Those skills you linked had both gray and red. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 16:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

As does this. The predominant color in all of those is something similar to gray, though, not red. Erasculio 16:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Erasculio: Dude, please have a look at this vid 0:26 is this grey?! And hey, since you are always refering to your one and only concept art see this - what hue can you see?! All right I'm sorry I destroyed your hopes for a greyscaled thief. Atmu 16:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"It may sound weird, but have you considered an eye test?" is not a PA, I was being sincerely worried you can not determine the difference between shades of red and shades of grey. - Infinite - talk 16:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

In that video it looks like orange-pinkish. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 16:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) @Atmu: You really should read the entire discussion before replying, as that would prevent you from embarassing yourself by replying with an image I have already linked to in the comment imediately above yours. And there is no need to link to a video, I had already uploaded an image of the thief character selection screen here, in which you can see that the majority of the screen is far from being pink. Erasculio 16:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

That uplaod of character creation is not an argument as there is light reflecting, effectively nullifying the colours. Also, Atmu did not state pink in their last comment, that's what you filled in for them. - Infinite - talk 16:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to take a better one, if you think that one cannot be used. I'm amused at how you are still incapable of using an image to justify your arguments. And regarding Atmu and pink... He had filled that one himself. Erasculio 16:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Why can't you just go ask to the new wiki liaison? --'Mai Yi' {TC} 16:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) (Edit conflict)

• "At the risk of repeating myself, I think the best option is to change the color of the common skills and keep grayscale for the thief. Erasculio 00:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC)"
• "I still agree with this approach, but it never hurts to see what the other options are. -- aspectacle  01:52, 12 March 2011 (UTC)"
• "Why would we use grey when the thief's colour isn't grey? As for different professions' colours being similar - similar doesn't mean indistinguishable. We use greens for rangers and necros. On GWW, we used blues for monk and dervish (just see gw1:Quick access links for an overview of colours). An orangey elementalist and a purpley-red thief won't be mixed up easily, provided we get the right oranges and the right purpley-reds. 17:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC) "
• "Yeah. There are conflicting sources for the thief's colour - but the concept art is, imo, the least reliable. Ideally, we need to find out what the colour actually is... (I don't think it's pink, though. That's probably reserved for the mesmer.) 20:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC) "
• "Drab may be, but we're not exactly looking for flamboyance here. I think with regards to the official colours, that's the closest to "official" we are going to get. - Infinite - talk 23:28, 12 March 2011 (UTC)"
• "Although I would prefer a purely greyscale scheme myself. Erasculio 02:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)"
  

You have not helped pick a non-greyscale option at all. If you want a consensus, you have to give and take, not just take. Why not propose a colour closer to greyscale that still abides by many other opinions? - Infinite - talk 16:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Erasculio: I have read it and I'm not embarrassed at all. Since you clealy have shown us all the color is far for grey either :) and btw: "The predominant color in all of those is something similar to gray" Said those please use your favored color picker tool and calculate an average color of each conecpt art of each profession shown. You won't be surprised the guardian's "predominant color [...] is something similar to gray", too - ooops invalid argument? @tango icon: Oh I'm sorry I changed the tango icon myself. It needn't to be pink if that's a problem :P Atmu 16:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to use "your favored color picker tool" to tell us what's the most common color at all the thief images, if you are so fond of it. Pro-tip: it isn't pink. Erasculio 16:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

" Pro-tip:" Think before posting. Atmu 16:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Way ahead of you Erasculio: That's the average. - Infinite - talk 16:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

WHY CAN YOU NOT SIMPLY ASK SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR ANET. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 16:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Too easy :) and what if he doesn't know or isn't allowed to tell? Atmu 17:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Also this is its gradient. - Infinite - talk 17:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If there is no reason not to ask, then why haven't you? --'Mai Yi' {TC} 17:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Besides he is "the French Community Manager for Guild Wars", not a member of the design team. Atmu 17:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

He could ask someone who is. Anything is better than this argument which show no sign of ending. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 17:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

He is also the wiki liaison. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Stephane_Lo_Presti/News --'Mai Yi' {TC} 17:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Atmu, I can't believe I need to waste my time explaining to you the difference between the average color and the most common color in a image. You know, you should have bothered to learn a bit about this issue before trying to use the average color as an argument. Average colors are only an average of all colors in an image; the most common color, which is what I was asking (and you failed completely to reply) isn't an average, it's simply the most common color. It's the difference between average and mode (look it up at wikipedia if you don't know what those mean). I can elaborate more, if you need more help to understand this : ) Now please stop to think a bit and again, try to reply: which are the most common colors in all the thief images? Erasculio 17:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) (Edit conflict) May I just point out that I have not been part of this discussion as of yet, and it already gotten out of hand. Firstly, I would object to using a grey scale colour selection purely on the fact that I believe that it serves a better purpose as the generic information colour. Grey is thus far a safe option from any profession. Yes I agree to the fact that the artwork for the thief has many greys in it, there are also other colours to be found. To this I will also point out the ranger artwork is nowhere near the colours chosen. But this discussion is for another time and place. Secondly, I would put forth a selection that I quickly whipped up based on several pieces of artwork I looked at.

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

I should note that I currently find the light colour I have chosen to be a bit too pink, but as I said, I quickly quipped it up. Also, I don't yet agree with the 2 light coloured system, hence you will find only one. You can also see a larger table here. Venom20 17:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I like it. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 17:24, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) "Now please stop to think a bit and again, try to reply: which are the most common colors in all the thief images? " All the shades of the gradient I so carefully informed you all of. - Infinite - talk 17:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Erasculio: /facepalm. Your post is ridiculous. @'Mai Yi' {TC}: Asked him :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atmu (talk • contribs).

(Edit conflict) @ Erasculio's links to the three skill icons: ALL of those icons have the presence of a blood red/purple. Also Erasculio, stop being so dismissive to Atmu; just because he disagrees with you doesn't mean he's wrong. (If you can't continue with this discussion without questioning the intelligence (Infi), reasoning (myself) or situational awareness (Atmu) of literally every other contributor here, then maybe you should take a break.) And to Venom: You're colors are a bit...bland, maybe a little more saturation? Aqua (T|C) 17:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Venom: "Firstly, I would object to using a grey scale colour selection purely on the fact that I believe that it serves a better purpose as the generic information colour": sure, but while you believe it serves a better purpose as the generic color, I believe it serves a better purpose as the thief color. The pink colors have many issues, as already pointed out above (we will have three professions - elementalist, mesmer and thief - with similar colors, the color isn't readily identifiable with the thief profession since the red tones are only seen in details at the thief images, and so on). If we work under the assumption that it's fine to have three professions with similar color schemes, then we could also assume that it's fine to have the thied and the common skills with similar color schemes, and use different greyscales for both.

@Infinite: You took from the images all the colors you think we can't use, and neither me or you described which are the most common colors, as opposed to what colors are simply there. Even the averages can be used for some of the images, though: the color distribution here (173-172-172) and here (144-141-141) make it clear that, despite some few red elements, most of those images are closer to gray scale than to anything else.

@Atmu: please sign your comments with four ~s.

@Aqua: "ALL of those icons have the presence of a blood red/purple", yes, they do. My issue is that they are only red and copper details, while the main color is clearly gray (as I have mentioned before, as I have indirectly told Atmu, and as I have described in the links above). Since the main, predominant colors of the thief images are close to gray scale, we should IMO use thos for the profession, as opposed to red or copper. Erasculio 17:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

No Eras, that is simply not the correct average. You need to excluse the figures themselves and just focus on the background colours. The average I listed does that and is close to, but does not count as greyscale. - Infinite - talk 17:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi there.

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

Chriskang 17:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry Chriskang, but unless we did that with every other one, we can't do it with this one. Aqua (T|C) 17:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

I like this one. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 17:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Well...

Slot	THIEF
Utility

This is as grey as it gets without being greyscale. - Infinite - talk 18:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks good. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 18:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Chris, I think our best compromise right now would be to make a table with both colors, a variant of gray and a variant of red (or copper). Erasculio 18:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

So my proposal doesn't even meet your ideals at all? - Infinite - talk 18:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I like Infinite's proposed colors. It is a blend of red and gray which still allows the links to be clearly read. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 18:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Simple border if double is too much?

Slot	Skill Type	Skill
Healing	General	Withdraw
		Signet of Malice

Chriskang 18:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The border is to stern to the eyes and/or the contrast is too effective. Either way it hurts my eyes. Chris, can I have your opinion on my last proposal? - Infinite - talk 18:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem with Chriskang's proposals is that they're very inconsistent with other tables. While it's nice to see compromises, they have to be valid as well. pling 18:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) x1.000 @Infinite: Your proposal an average between my opinion and yours, but it has IMO more or less the same issues as the more saturated plum. I could settle for it if it's that or nothing, but I think Chris' idea (using both) is better. Erasculio 18:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Pling just told you why it does not work. --'Mai Yi' {TC} 18:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Erasculio your attitude is ridiculous. Even there are undeniable shades and hues of plum, red, pink, or whatever you call them you simple just hate any non-grey suggestion. Please make some suggestions yourself, considering the debate on a non-grey base color. I'm looking forward to see something from you. (and here are your 4~, sry I forgot to sign :) Atmu 18:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Why everyone randomly disappeared as if hopeless is beyond me, I blame it on a busy sunday, but:

Slot	THIEF
Utility

This proposal was actually a medium Eras was willing to accept. Can't we just make it the thief's colours and get it over with? It's so far from elementalist it's laughable and it's not purple enough to be classified as a "mesmer" clash. I can't believe it takes this much speculation to get the thief right, the guardian was done in less than half the time/comments. Personally I still think the first proposal from my end (the one of the same table, at the top) worked perfectly fine as well, but we're not hitting consensus if we all don't budge, so I think we should pick this colour scheme and move on with more pressing things, such as the guardian traits and the attributes or something. - Infinite - talk 21:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks fine. Actually, I think I prefer it to the other ones. pling 21:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with it, too :) Looks thievishly enough and can't be mixed up with any other template colors yet. (how's the lighter hue gonna look like?)Atmu 22:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll support the most recently suggested color palette as a means to an end. (I personally believe that it should be more saturated, but I am quite honestly sick of how long this discussion over a relatively small topic has gotten.) Support. Aqua (T|C) 23:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

945	974550	945	974550	945	974550
C99	c08f95	C99	c08f95	C99	c08f95
ECC	dec6c9	ECC	dec6c9	ECC	dec6c9

I see this happening with the colour selections. I had asked this in a previous discussion that appeared to have been archived without much interest. Why are we using web-safe 3 character hex codes when the codes selected are not the colours agreed upon? The above table demonstrates the colour agreed upon (6 character code) versus the colour implemented (3 character code). Can someone please explain why discussions are even had if they aren't going to be followed? I said it last time, but if you can play the game, you can display more colours than the 216 web-safe ones (I think there are 216, I should double check later). Venom20 04:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Slot	THIEF
Utility

Slot	THIEF
Utility

To further demonstrate, here are the tables of "agreed upon" and "implemented". This is circumventing that I would like to discuss. Venom20 04:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't there is any good reason to use safe colours. Players will have to have a gaming machine to play this game, they're not going to have any problems with these colours. As a note I think we need to start using the color template in the profession related tables to reduce the pain of changing these colours. -- aspectacle  05:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

A how many bit videocard does a computer have to have to only be able to display web-safe colours anyway? The web-safe variant looks like my... Well, initial proposal (which has indeed not been concluded on. I think we should revert the implementation to the 6-digit hex colours due to consensus. :) - Infinite - talk 12:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Venom: I was not trying to circumvent discussion or make some statement like "Aqua doesn't need discussion." I was merely following the standard that had been set by: every other current color scheme. (And nothing was really discussed on your initial suggestion for 6 bit vs 3 bit colors.) Aqua (T|C) 20:25, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Shall we make all 3 digits 6 digits? I mean, for the other 5 it doesn't change anything and for the thief proposal the colours are rather specific. As per Aspectacle, if you have a problem with displaying hex colours with 6 digits, your system is not fit to play GW2 on anyway. - Infinite - talk 20:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The great part about changing the colors back, Infi, is that they were from my proposal, and as such all of the original colors (before rounding) (are available in my color sandbox...) Aqua (T|C) 20:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh, I see. Though now I also see that the ele there may need to be slightly darker, because I can see people thinking it's too similar to thief (which is semi-understandable). I think we should just use those them instead of the simplified ones (as we hit consensus on all of those). - Infinite - talk 20:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Colour consensus

I was wondering if anyone can assist me. I am trying to go through the conversations that exist in regards to reaching agreements for the temporary colours chosen for the current professions. The thief's selection is obviously here. Albeit it is small, the guardian discussion can be found here. The necromancer and ranger discussion is located here. But where are the warrior and elementalist discussions? There is a discussion about colours started here, but doesn't really look like anything came of it. Would someone be so kind to refer me to the conversations on the E and W colours? Venom20 22:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Warrior and ele were also discussed here. Many were in agreement upon them there, and there had been several other discussions, which I'll try to find, where it had been accepted before I brought it here. Aqua (T|C) 22:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm mainly asking so that I can try to update the colour templates with the correct light and lighter colours so that we can implement the colour templates in the tables. Because the templates only are set with 3 colours, there is an objection to implementing them because then the tables will only have the usual 3 colours. Venom20 22:44, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The colors were "generalized" from my 6 bit color proposal. However, I kept the originals in my color testing space... They have all been updated and restored. Aqua (T|C) 22:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, you did my work for me ;) Venom20 12:40, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Now in light with the thief here, maybe the elementalist requires a little discussion? Just a bit darker (like the xml colour, but not that dark) should do, as it would be more easily distinguished from thief. (Right now only the border colour is a strong (enough) difference, the light tone can be made a tad darker, without losing that general "elementalist" feel.) - Infinite - talk 13:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Colour templates

Rather than continue a small discussion on my talk page, I'd like to ask the community to clarify something. The current colour templates implement a colour sequence as follows dark/light/lighter/lighter2. I always wondered why default = light. Is just "the way it's been"? If so, then I motion to change based on logic. Although if there is a great coding mystery that can be revealed, then I'd be interested in hearing about it. I would also suggest that we suspend the implementation of the colour templates until this discussion is had, so that revert wars do not continue. I would like to implement the following color system: dark/default/light/lighter instead of the current one. Venom20 01:11, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

In addition to the "old ways the best way for this" I must also state that if we are going to use parameters, they should be necessary for all. Having {x-color|light}, {x-color|lighter}, {x-color|dark} and {x-color} kind of lends itself to a more confusing system. Aqua (T|C) 01:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Not really. A default colour is just that, default. Default shouldn't need a parameter, and if one is concerned about using a parameter, there is still the parameter of background that applies to default. Venom20 12:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't really help when you see on a page "dark, default, light, lighter" or "dark, default" or "default, lighter" - what shade is "default"? Where does it fit in the sequence? It makes more sense to continue the progression with a shade, i.e. "dark, light, lighter, lightest". Since one of those shades will be commonest, that will be set as the default in the switch template (so it doesn't need a parameter input if, for example, you're using it without any other shade). pling 22:18, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I actually like using default more. Using "dark" and "light" gives me the impression that we would have something in-between those two; if one is dark and the other is light, where is the option that isn't either dark or light, but rather in the middle among them? I also think it works better than using light, lighter and lightest; too much room for confusion between those three similar color names (and does someone know why this is being pushed to the right like this?). Erasculio 22:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Atleast in dark->light->lighter->lightest you know where each color is respectively. Dark->light->lighter and then default on the outside makes it difficult to figure out which location in the sequence is. Aqua (T|C) 22:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Well instead of "light", use "middle" or some other word (I can't think of any), so it's "dark, <in-between>, light, lighter". My point is that the <in-between> should be more descriptive and useful than "default", which has neither of those qualities; it's just template syntax. pling 23:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

"Well instead of "light", use "middle" or some other word": sure, that works for me. Erasculio 23:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) It should still default to a certain color, but that color shouldn't be called "default." (Probably default to <in between>.) Aqua (T|C) 23:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

This was my biggest issue with the current system. There isn't a colour so that light and dark have meaning. It doesn't need to be called default. It could be called normal, heck it doesn't even have to be called anything. In my books {x-colour} is fine as the normal or default colour. That way light, lighter, and dark have meanings. Venom20 01:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Normal or middle, either works. Also, just have the template default to that parameter if nothing's specified (if it isn't already). - Infinite - talk 13:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

How about medium? Although normal or middle is fine, too, I don't think that's worth having a long discussion over. I agree with Infinite, use that as the default. Erasculio 14:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Anything that depicts it's a middle ground. Medium over middle. - Infinite - talk 14:13, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Would this be a fair compromise with everyone then:

{{#switch: {{lc: {{{1}}} }}
	| border
	| dark       = #xxxxxx
	| tint
	| light      = #xxxxxx
	| tint2      
	| lighter    = #xxxxxx
	| medium
	| background
	| #default   = #xxxxxx
}}

So that border=dark, tint=light, tint2=lighter, and background=default=medium. I agree with you Era, I most certainly do not want to dwell on this topic. Venom20 14:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Engineer

Here we go again:

Engineer
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Seems like a safe choice? - Infinite - talk 13:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Looks good to me. --Sirrush 13:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Could it be a bit darker? I feel myself unable to tell it from warrior. Glastium - talk 14:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Engineer
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Darker? Personally I would be inclined to make the warrior more yellow, but darker (and dual colours, if we need them). - Infinite - talk 14:10, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

By comparing the background color of File:Engineer 04 concept art.png & File:Warrior 04 concept art.png ; it seems the warrior one is brighter to me. Glastium | talk 14:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

That was a fail on my end. I meant to say "but here is the Engi with darker colours." - Infinite - talk 14:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

lol I guess ANet is determined to make engineers to feel 'rustier' Glastium | talk 14:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I like this one as well, for what it's worth. ~Farlo Talk 20:38, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Engineer
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

(Reset indent) for traditional reasons, I feel inclined to throw out at least one suggestion. Venom20 14:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I like the second one, fits the proffesion nicely. -- Cyan 17:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Engineer
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

And what about this beige used on the front page for the "presenting the engineer" text? 19:49, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I like either the third one, or the second with the grey smaller boxes. Zolann The Irreverent 20:09, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion (as I too am somewhat obligated to present a color scheme.)

Light Side
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Neutral
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Dark Side
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Aqua (T|C) 20:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

The neutral one also fits it nice in my opinion. -- Cyan 21:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I prefer Loquay's suggestion, and then the "neutral" one after that. ~Ekko (talk) 21:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that Loquay's is a bit to unsaturated (and I also get the Condition feeling from that particular color scheme.) It also seems uninspired by the wall paper. Aqua (T|C) 00:47, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Are non- admins/editors allowed to post here? If so, I also like the neutral one. [crawls back into hole] Lysander 01:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I've never been mistaken for an admin before... and btw, no one who has commented on this topic yet is an admin. Aqua (T|C) 01:26, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Now that I look at Condition, I agree, Aqua. I support neutral, then. ~Ekko (talk) 01:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I support the neutral scheme too. -Alarielle- 08:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

So do I. 12:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Also support Aqua's neutral scheme. - Infinite - talk 12:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) implemented, let's see how it fares. Venom20 12:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Am I the only one who prefers the darker one? The neutral one is still too close to which of warrior. Glastium | talk 15:54, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Engineer
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Warrior
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

While I too prefer a darker blend, it's about consensus and I think that one was obtained. We don't really want another thief discussion on our hands at this time. Once all the professions are released, it will then be a good time to go back an tweak as needed. Also, in regards to looking like the warrior's colours, please see the comparison tables above. Venom20 16:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I like the tan/gray one above, the third one from the top. However, I think the one above this is different enough from the warrior to work just as well. Cirdan 17:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, as long as it does not cause confusions to the majority, I'll be happy to drop this Glastium | talk 17:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this is a temporary consensus and that the entire colour discussion will be started fresh closer to release (when all information to decide colours on are present). Right now it's merely intended to be different from any clashing schemes and to make our skill list pages and trait list articles look pretty. - Infinite - talk 17:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

@Cirdan: Color schemes to be coherrent and pretty. Having a random green-gray in an other wise (iron) rust color is really dissonant and not that eye pleasing. Aqua (T|C) 19:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Mesmer

Darker/Redder Skills   Skill   Skill   Skill   Skill

Purple Skills   Skill   Skill   Skill   Skill

Bluer Skills   Skill   Skill   Skill   Skill

Thief for Comparison Skills   Skill   Skill   Skill   Skill

I'm fairly certain that these may be too saturated, but I'll throw them out there anyway. I'm basing the ideas off of Purple Fan... Aqua (T|C) 02:51, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The first one looks good. It resembles the color where characters wear in skill intros. Glastium | talk 02:55, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to wait until the wallpaper is released Venom20 17:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
Skills	Skill
	Skill
	Skill
	Skill

Can't go wrong with scheme based on XML color... I pretty much guessed correclty with my "Purple" suggestion above, but I think I prefer the one based on the actual color. Aqua (T|C) 01:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

While your selection of colours for the mesmer do appear to coincide with the XML colour, it appears that you can go wrong, just look at the ranger's XML vs the selected colours. Anyways, I currently have no quarrels with the latest proposition (the one above this from Aqua). Just for shits and giggles, I will throw my current choice into the mix, even though I already know the answer.

Suggestion
Skills	Skill
	Chaos Storm
	Veil
	Mirror Images

It is based on the fan concept art. It can be seen here in this chart and here in this test. Also, I"m just doing it for s'n'g as I already know it's too saturated for the rest of the colour selections. Cheers. Venom20 18:07, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I was saying "can't go wrong" with the mesmer XML color; I agree that the ranger is horrid. But that's kind of beside the point. Does the purple I suggested most recently work? And I also just did a quick saturation check with my most recent color palette, and its all good... I'll wait for a couple more opinions before doing anything though. Aqua (T|C) 19:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Supporting Aqua's last suggestion. Chriskang 20:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC)