Template talk:Weapon skill table header

The Type Column

Does anyone know if there were any specific reasons why the Type column was made to be 189px wide? As far as I can tell this is much wider than the content that can be in this column. Couple that with the fact that header cells are text-align centered, data cells are text-align left, and their are no vertical gridlines...creates some visual funkiness. For example, see Spear#Skills_by_profession and notice how Burst isn't even close to lining up with the column header. I'd like to fix this because it looks poor. I figure the options are A) reduce the width, B) un-center the header, C) center the data cells. I'm thinking (A) unless there's a reason it needs to be as wide as it is now. Any thoughts? — Burfo 03:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a template because it's used to make sure all the weapon tables on profession skill lists are formatted identically, and the widths are set so that they match the slot skill tables in the positioning of the Recharge column. Changing any widths in here would break that. The Type column has to be this wide in order to "soak" the extra space that is taken up by the underwater and skillpoint columns in the slot tables. —Dr Ishmael 03:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Any objections to adding a spacer column to the right of Type (essentially consuming the space used by Under Water and Skill Point columns of the Slot Skill Table)? I think that would help us here. — Burfo 04:00, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The columns here have to match up to {{Weapon skill table row}}, so I'd rather not add empty columns. If it bothers you that much, we could apply some "padding-right" to the header cell that will force the text over toward the left.

The overall design of these skill tables was the result of a couple long discussions on the community portal - just noting that this isn't something I dreamed up and implemented all by myself. —Dr Ishmael 04:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Column for Activation Time

I think a column for activation time would be useful (I find myself clicking over to a lot of skill pages to see it). I'd give adding it myself a try... but I'm still a noob when it comes to template formatting that would need to be done for the weapon skill row. -- osuracnaes (talk) 17:49, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I had meant to do this but forgot, thanks for reminding me. —Dr Ishmael 18:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh wow, that was quick. Thanks for being awesome! -- osuracnaes (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Energy inclusion

Can you guys add energy column? It's a revenant-only resource and doesn't replace recharge time. – Valento ^msg 14:36, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Charge and charge cooldown

Now that some skills are getting charges, this will need the cooldown (time between charge uses), charge cooldown (time for the charges to restore themselves) and charge count (number of charges it holds). The tables as they are really don't give much useful information just giving the cooldown --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 22:15, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Range

Since different skills have different ranges for the same weapon being used by the same class, why not add range to this table? Steve1 (talk) 21:22, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Range isn't annotated outside of the skill fact template and can't be queried and so cannot be shown. --81.155.148.187 21:38, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Format

Can we please talk about the format of the weapon skill tables and the slot skill tables.

1. The old format, i.e. anything before April 2019, is definitely outdated, using hacks like ! style="width:43px; text-align:left;" | {{recharge}} in the header and | style="text-align:right; padding-right:29px;" | {{fraction|<number>}} to right-algin the recharge, activation and so on directly under the header icon. Note that most likely this will not work properly for all browser settings.

• Old header:

! style="width:10px;"                  |
! style="width:200px;"                 | Skill
! style="width:189px;"                 | Type
! style="width:43px; text-align:left;" | [[File:Activation.png|link=Activation time]]
! style="width:43px; text-align:left;" | [[File:Energy.png|20px|link=Energy]]}}
! style="width:43px; text-align:left;" | [File:Tango-recharge-darker.png|link=Recharge]]
! style="width:45.4%;"                 | Description

2. The current format, well... it's a complete mess right now.

• Current header, cleared up to make it readable:

! style="width:1em;"                      |
! style="width:17em;"                     | Skill
! style="width:3.5em; text-align:center;" | [[File:Activation.png|link=Activation time]]
! style="width:3.5em; text-align:center;" | [[File:Energy.png|20px|link=Energy]] }}
! style="width:3.5em; text-align:center;" | [[File:Tango-recharge-darker.png|link=Recharge]]
! style="width:60%;"                      | Description

• The header widths got changed from px to em but ignored that there is a css class in MediaWiki:Common.css still using px:

.table.skills { width:100%; max-width:1000px; display:table; }

• The header widths got changed from px to em but ignored that the table rows still using padding-right with px:

| style="text-align:right; padding-right:29px;" | {{fraction|<recharge>}}

• Overall the widths doesn't match, the right-aligned numbers doesn't match with the icons.

3. The new format, I suggest the following changes:

• MediaWiki:Common.css: change the css class skills from 1000px to 100em (i.e. ->1200px for standard browser settings) in order to have a responsive table:

.table.skills { width:100%; max-width:100em; display:table; }

• New header: specify the widths for all columns except the Skill column. The Skills column will take up as much widths as it's left, i.e. up to 27.5%, depending if there is a Type or Weapon column (with 9% width), also +4.5% without energy column.

! style="width: 2.5%;"                                     | #
!                                                            Skill
! style="width: 4.5%;text-align:right;padding-right:1em"   | [[File:Activation.png|link=Activation time]]
! style="width: 4.5%;text-align:right;padding-right:1em"   | [[File:Energy.png|20px|link=Energy]]
! style="width: 4.5%;text-align:right;padding-right:1em"   | [[File:Tango-recharge-darker.png|link=Recharge]]}}
! style="width:56.5%;"                                     | Description

• New rows: the recharge, activation and energy columns will have the same format as the header to ensure properly right-aligned numbers directly below the icon.

! style="text-align:right;padding-right:1em" | {{fraction|<number>}}

• The new format will carry over to the templates Template:Profession mechanic skill table row and Template:Slot skill table row (same changes as here for the icon columns) and their subtemplates, as well as increasing and adjusting the width from Template:Trait table to 100em to match the skills table width.

New format

#	Skill			Description
Guardian
1	Strike	0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe.
1	Vengeful Strike	0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe again.
1	Wrathful Strike	0.5½		Attack with a final, powerful strike that applies might for each foe you strike.
2	Whirling Wrath	0.75¾	8	Spin in place and swing your greatsword while hurling powerful projectiles.
3	Leap of Faith	0.5½	10	Leap at your foe. Inflicts blindness and heals you for each foe hit.
4	Symbol of Wrath	0.25¼	12	Symbol. Pierce the ground with a mystic symbol that damages foes while granting resolution to allies.

#	Skill	Weapon			Description
Guardian
1	Strike	Greatsword	0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe.
1	Vengeful Strike	Greatsword	0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe again.
1	Wrathful Strike	Greatsword	0.5½		Attack with a final, powerful strike that applies might for each foe you strike.
2	Whirling Wrath	Greatsword	0.75¾	8	Spin in place and swing your greatsword while hurling powerful projectiles.
3	Leap of Faith	Greatsword	0.5½	10	Leap at your foe. Inflicts blindness and heals you for each foe hit.
4	Symbol of Wrath	Greatsword	0.25¼	12	Symbol. Pierce the ground with a mystic symbol that damages foes while granting resolution to allies.

vs current

#	Skill			Description
Greatsword
1	Strike	0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe.
1	Vengeful Strike	0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe again.
1	Wrathful Strike	0.5½		Attack with a final, powerful strike that applies might for each foe you strike.
2	Whirling Wrath	0.75¾	8	Spin in place and swing your greatsword while hurling powerful projectiles.
3	Leap of Faith	0.5½	10	Leap at your foe. Inflicts blindness and heals you for each foe hit.
4	Symbol of Resolution	0.25¼	12	Symbol. Pierce the ground with a mystic symbol that damages foes while granting resolution to allies.

Edit:vs the old format

	Skill	Type			Description
Greatsword
1	Strike		0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe.
1	Vengeful Strike		0.5½		Chain. Strike your foe again.
1	Wrathful Strike		0.5½		Attack with a final, powerful strike that applies might for each foe you strike.
2	Whirling Wrath		0.75¾	8	Spin in place and swing your greatsword while hurling powerful projectiles.
3	Leap of Faith		0.5½	10	Leap at your foe. Inflicts blindness and heals you for each foe hit.
4	Symbol of Resolution	Symbol	0.25¼	12	Symbol. Pierce the ground with a mystic symbol that damages foes while granting resolution to allies.

--Tolkyria (talk) 13:17, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I couldn't convince anyone so far, so lets go into details regarding the new format.

There are three templates that should have the same width and I suggest to update the format:

1. Template:Weapon skill table header (note that Template:Profession mechanic skill table header is just a copy of the format)
2. Template:Slot skill table header
3. Template:Trait table header

So basically I intended to use a 30% + 70% split on a width of 100em, that's 1200px for default browser settings (compare with the currently used width of 1000px) ...

100em in table, i.e. 92.3 em outside (12/13=.923)

30%
Skill

70%
Description

... but with all the columns, i.e. skill position, activation and recharge time, energy, hero point cost, underwater, type or weapon, that's what I ended up with:

a. The weapon skills and slot skills have the same description width.

b. The numerical values are properly right-aligned together with the header and have all the same column width.

c. Everything is responsive.

Add 1. Template:Weapon skill table header

• Default format:

2.5%
#

32%
Skill

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

• With energy column for revenants:

2.5%
#

27.5%
Skill

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

• With weapon or type column, for example for Symbol:

2.5%
#

23%
Skill

9%
Type

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

• With weapon or type column and energy column:

2.5%
#

18.5%
Skill

9%
Type

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

Ad 2. Template:Slot skill table header

• Default format:

25.5%
Skill

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

• With energy column:

21%
Skill

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

• With type column:

16.5%
Skill

9%
Type

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

4.5%

56.5%
Description

Ad 3. Template:Trait table header: again 30% for the trait tier + trait name, 70% for the recharge and the description.

11%

19%

4.5%

65.5%

--Tolkyria (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed changes. However, Common.css can only be edited by an admin. --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Personally not at all bothered by the old format, it doesn't bother me that we use PX, versus EM. We've had the old table format since 2012-ish, I can't recall many complaints about browser compatibility. -Chieftain Alex 18:16, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, for me the options are either reverting back to the old format, or create something new. But the current stage, mixing em with px is just a mess...

Regarding the old format from 2012:

1. The old format uses padding to somehow fix the left-aligned headers and right-aligned table entries. Why not just right-align both?
2. The old format uses the now redundant Type column on default, therefore also the Description column is quite small. Reintroducing it to show it on default makes no sense, so what to do with this column?

Hence to revert back to the old format using px, but still keep the current functionality, i.e. disabled Type column on default, possiblity to enable Weapon column, used for Clone, Phantasm, Symbol, more emphasize on the description column (since the type is now displayed in description ingame and on the wiki), properly align numbers and their header,... will be probably require as much work as creating a new concept (which I already created).

--Tolkyria (talk) 18:54, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

I have no complaints with the new format. —Kvothe (talk) 19:35, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

(Reset indent) So, maybe it helps to analyze the old format. The initially old format looks well thought through, with the problem that it is not flexible at all. There is no tolerance to add an additional column, everything must be there on point.

1000px

10px
#

200px
Skill

189px
Type

43px

43px

45.4% (actually 44.4% - 2px for the lines)
Description

	Skill	Type			Description

Then during 2015 the energy column got added for the class Revenant, without touching any widths. This means that the table with zero tolerance suddenly had another column of 43px with 0.5em padding on the left and on the right, but still being limited to a max-width of 1000px. This means while using the energy column, all column widths have been shrinked by ~5%, i.e. 95%. Therefore, the idea of having all columns at the exact same position doesn't held anymore. Furthermore, since the old format used left-align headers and right-aligned entries, which have been exactly matched to the initial format, again having zero tolerance, adding the energy column slightly dismatches the left-aligned header and the right-aligned numbers. Compare:

	Skill	Type				Description

And that's exactly what my redesign offers, a flexible skill column, which doesn't have any width specified. This allows to add one or two columns and keeps the description columns and the icon columns at the same position for each table. So in my opinion, there is no way back to the old format... since 2015. Therefore, when we are talking about the old format, we can either talk about the format without energy column that isn't applicable anymore, or we can talk about the old format with energy column, where the intended widths don't match at all.

Hence, that's why I'm trying to propose a new format will keeping the basic ideas of the old format:

1. All columns have a fixed position, i.e. the skill number is always at the same position, the left skill column border is always at the same position, the description for any table is always at the same position.
2. The icons of the icon columns, e.g. activation, energy, recharge, are directly above the right-aligned numbers (but now with properly right-aligned header)
3. The icon columns have the same width.

So in my opinion there is no way back, therefore, my proposed widths are, in em (since they provide more functionality and doesn't increase the difficulty in the redesign)

• Max-width: 100em
• Skill number: 1.5em
• Skill: not specified flexible
• Type/weapon column: 8em
• Icon columns: 3.5em
• Description: 55.5em

These numbers yield the examples above (note that there is 0.5em padding left and right). Of course, the width I presented above can be adjusted, but for these widths look nicely for me.

Conclusion: For me there's no way back, the template isn't doing it's job properly since 2015. Redesign it with a flexible skill column. --Tolkyria (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I have to admit that what I suggest above didn't convince me 100%. The flexible skill column simplifies a lot but in rare case it get really small. Hence let's see this as first try.

So I took one step back, looked at the skill tables versions from 2012 and tried to mirror their intentions in proper and clean way... and that's what I have come up with:

CSS class skills

• Increase width from 1000px to 100em (~1200px for standard browser settings)

Slot skill table header

• Change Skill column width from 200px to 19em (~228px).
• Change Underwater skill, Hero Point, Activation, Recharge columns from left-algined 43px to right-aligned 3.5em.
• Change Description column from 54.7% (i.e. ~540px) to 61em (~732px), where the description text has padding-left:2em and therefore starts at 40% of the table.
• Adding an optional Energy column (width: 3.5em) now moves the description column by 4.5em to the right (i.e. 3.5em + 0.5em padding-left and + 0.5em padding-right).
• Adding an optional Type column (rarely used) with the width of 8em moves the description by 9em to the right (i.e. 8em + 0.5em padding-left and + 0.5em padding-right).

Weapon skill table header

• Change Skill number column width from 10px to 1.5em.
• Change Skill column width from 200px to 25.5em.
• Change Activation, Recharge columns from left-algined 43px to right-aligned 3.5em.
• Change Description column from 54.7% (i.e. ~540px) to 61em (~732px), where the description text has padding-left:2em and therefore starts at 40% of the table.
• Adding an optional Energy column (width: 3.5em) now moves the description column by 4.5em to the right (i.e. 3.5em + 0.5em padding-left and + 0.5em padding-right).
• Adding an optional Type (rarely used) or Weapon (sometimes) column with the width of 8em moves the skill column by 9em to the left (i.e. 8em + 0.5em padding-left and + 0.5em padding-right), taking up exactly that space that is occupied by the underwater and hero point columns in the slot skill table. Note that only one of these columns can be used at the same time.
• This format carries over to Profession mechanic table header.

Trait table

• Change Tier column from 150px to 11.5em.
• Change Trait column from 200px to 20em.
• Change Recharge column to right-aligned 3.5em.
• Change Description column to 61em (~732px), where the description text has padding-left:2em and therefore starts at 40% of the table.
• Add an optional energy space to the Trait column to align the description column width to the templates above if an energy column is used.

Features

• The Description column starts at 40% of the table for all three templates (or at 44.5% if an energy column is used). The description column is more emphasized through the increased size (since the skill type is part of the description now) by taking up the extra space from the CSS class width increase.
• The Recharge column is at the same position for all three templates.
• The Weapon or Type column (also Pet or Archetype column for profession mechanic skill tables) for weapon skill tables takes exactly the place that is used by the the Underwater and Hero Point column in the slot skill table.
• All numerical values are properly right-aligned directly below the properly right-aligned table header icon.

Visual demonstration

• Slot skill table header

19em
Skill

3.5em

3.5em

3.5em

3.5em

61em
Description

description: 60% with padding-left:2em

19em
Skill

3.5em

3.5em

3.5em

3.5em

3.5em

56.5em
Description

description: 55.5% with padding-left:2em

• Weapon skill table header

1.5em
#

25.5em
Skill

3.5em

3.5em

61em
Description

8em optinal type

description: 60% with padding-left:2em

1.5em
#

25.5em
Skill

3.5em

3.5em

3.5em

56.5em
Description

8em optinal type

description: 55.5% with padding-left:2em

• Trait table

11.5em
Tier

20em
Trait

3.5em

61em
Description

description: 60% with padding-left:2em

• THE version from 2012 for comparison... the widths are more or less the same with a slightly bigger Skill column for skill name monstrosities like this Dismiss Lieutenant Soulcleave together with chain and skill icon. The description column gets emphasized by getting some additional width to the right.

1000px

200px
Skill

43px

43px

43px

43px

54.7%
Description

That's it from my side, it would be a pleasure for me to actually implement this concept, and finally get properly right-aligned values again. --Tolkyria (talk) 17:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)