Talk:Skill

Archive

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• 2010-2012

Is recharge timer tied to skill or weapon?

Couldn't find any info about it, so I thought I'd pop the question: Is a skill global for your character and put on recharge for all weapons using that skill or only that specific weapon's instance of that skill?
Example: Say that I'm a warrior who loves the skill Shield Bash. Can I then use Shield Bash, switch to my other weapon set (which also has a shield in it) and Shield Bash again? Or does the two shields share the same recharge timer? Chad 10:51, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed: The skill will start recharging for all your weapons using that skill. So equipping the same weapon type in the same hand in both your weapon sets is a waste of skills. Chad 18:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"Spells"

I originally thought that a "spell" was the same as a "skill" but then I saw a mesmer trait that only triggered on spells, so I wasn't sure. I noticed that "spell" redirects to this page, and I thought that they were the same, but a few spots in the article make me think otherwise (referring to skills as spells, even though I don't think that a warrior's melee attacks count as spells). Are skills and spells the same thing, or do the mechanics differentiate them? Kormon Balser 02:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

What is that mesmer trait which specifically mentions spells? Mediggo 07:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, woops, I meant elementalist. There are a couple that trigger on "spells" and I was just wondering if I activate a signet or something, if that would trigger it. Kormon Balser 13:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Since those only trigger on the elementalist's own spells, I'd guess that spell and skill are equivalent there - the elementalist weapon skills don't include any actual attacks. —Dr Ishmael 13:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Uh, I think that most elementalist skills are attacks... Kormon Balser 13:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I mean they're not physical attacks where you're actually hitting your foe with the weapon. They all involve some sort of arcane power in the form of a spell. —Dr Ishmael 14:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that's just usual ArenaNet skill description inconsistency. Spells sure sound more logical in the context of, say, Glyph skill descriptions. Nevertheless, casting any spells in an offensive manner should still be considered attacking in GW2. Mediggo 17:50, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Damage

I've got a lot of questions about skills as I'm trying for a refresh of the article. Sorry if similar has been discussed elsewhere. I've read the damage article and while it is useful I'd like to examine the information from the perspective of the skill, what you read in the description and what we're recording.

1. Does the value recorded for damage or duration in the skill description change if you equip an item or trait which improves your stats?
2. Is the relationship between damage and player attack power the same for every skill?
3. Has anyone observed durations, ranges or number of applications of effects change with levels?
4. Is there a de facto wiki standard for ensuring we get the skill details consistently recorded?

I've got a bunch more questions but they depend on the answers to these ones. :) -- aspectacle  20:13, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

My guesses:

1. Tooltip numbers are directly related to your attributes, so if the attributes change, the numbers change.
2. See User:Capric - he has a damage formula worked out that is the product of your Power attribute (= Attack stat), a WeaponPower number that reflects a "level-appropriate" weapon, and a skill-specific weighting factor. Since this is multiplicative, a change in your Power attributes would give different absolute changes, but the same percentage changes, to the damage of different skills.
3. Didn't have time during the stress test to check that directly, but I would guess that they don't. There are secondary attributes to increase boon/condition duration and effects, and traits to improve range.
4. See the discussion on my talk page. I think the consensus is to make the baseline level 80 with 916 in primary attributes (i.e. no attribute bonuses) and 0 in secondary attributes (i.e. no trait points spent).

Shameless plug: I would love for you to join me on my skill data accumulation project during the next BWE! (see talk page section linked above) The more data collected, the more of these questions we can sort out. —Dr Ishmael 20:31, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

@Aspectacle Damage changes with equipment. I had +20 power and +20 precision staves at level 15, and I've noticed that damage shown in the tooltips was different. Don't remember precise numbers though, I've even made screens, but the tooltips are missing on them, so they are useless. Alfa-R 20:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that too - using PrintScreen in-game made the tooltips fade out for the screenshot. I had to load GW2 through Steam and use Steam's screenshot feature to get the tooltips. —Dr Ishmael 21:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I have recorded a bunch of elementalist skills at level 2 and at level 80 with fraps, so I could see how the tooltip and the skills themselves deal with damage and other variants such as duration and etc. It appears variables such as duration do not actually change based just on a higher level, at least in the tooltips, while damage and health healed do. For example, [[:File:User Erasculio glyph level 02.jpg|here]] is Glyph of Elemental Harmony at level 2 and [[:File:User Erasculio glyph level 80.jpg|here]] is the same skill at level 80. This was under the default emementalist traits upon being uplifted to level 80. Erasculio 22:11, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Was your Compassion stat altered when being scaled up to 80? I ask this due to the difference in regeneration totals. - Infinite - talk 23:22, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Awesome. :) Thanks everyone. I knew that someone would have figured out most of basics of the system, I just couldn't find out where the discussion was.

1. So the tool tip for the skill shows the maximum possible damage from its use with all contributing factors. Anything which increases the stats, including temporary (might), increases the tool tip damage.
2. Thanks for the interesting link. What exactly is a 'level appropriate weapon'? I'm assuming it's one which is the maximum damage for that weapon for the character's level? If I'm scaled down, or my weapon is weak it becomes a level inappropriate weapon scale factor?
3. Okay. Eras's point about healing values increasing is handy because I forgot that would need to increase as well. :P
4. Thinking about values for environmental weapons and steal skills (what I spent my two minutes last test thinking about) it might be difficult (or annoying, or both) to collect information using the L80, no buffs values - given level scaling and availability of monsters. Maybe best effort and a note about the character attributes for the information?

Great tip about loading GW2 through steam for screen caps. I found my own work around, but steam is much better. -- aspectacle  04:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Utility/Healing/Elite Skills Swapping ...

Ok, so I've been watching some youtube gameplay (pve as well as pvp), and noticed that when you're out of combat for a while, a small yellow triangle appears on the upper-right side of the last 5 skills on your bar, meaning; you can now change your healing, utility and elite skills, right??? But a question popped now when that triangle appeared even on recharging skills, are the skills still swappable during the recharge time when outside of combat??? Anyone who played during beta can confirm this please??--Leonheart 13:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Could you link that video? I don't remember too well, but it may be that you can change a recharging slot skill to a new one while out of combat, but it will continue recharging with previous skill's recharge time. Mediggo 13:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I can answer from my beta experience: No, you cannot swap out recharging skills - the skill has to finish recharging before you can swap it. —Dr Ishmael 13:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ishmael. After a while out of combat the triangle appears in all skills in the right part of the screen, but we can only change those which are fully recharged. Erasculio 14:11, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh I see, ya just as I thought, would've been awesome but kinda overpowered if u could ... anyways thanks for the answer --Leonheart 03:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Learning new skills is muddled now

The whole revision of that section makes it unclear as to how to gain skills using a weapon. Sentence structure is poor and overall explanation is confusing. Please fix this. It's written in such a way that someone playing the game or having knowledge of the game would understand, but it's poorly worded for someone new and not understanding game mechanics. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.150.90.20 (talk).

Hey, this is a wiki - you are allowed to fix it yourself, you know :) Make an account too, and join the happy throng. --snograt 14:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

That any better? Aqua (talk) 15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

And that's what happens when we have edit conflicts! Sorry... ::crawls away in shame:: Redshift 16:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Documenting skill numbers

How should we document skill numbers, such as damage, healing, etc? IMO, two options (among many) are:

• Show the value at level 80 without traits or equipment, which means Power 916 and no traits. This is what is currently being done, it's easy to achieve (anyone can take a character to the Mists and document it); but my concern is how it may not necessarily be easy to extrapolate damage numbers from there.
• Show the value without traits under Power 1000. It would be easier to extrapolate numbers from there (if someone's Power is 100, they would know they would do more or less 10% of that damage; if it's 525, they would know they would do more or less 50% of that damage, and so on), IF (and that's a big if) numbers change that linearly. It would also be harder to document, but assuming the math is that linear, we could extrapolate the values from Power 916 and some other Power value.

Thoughts? Erasculio 12:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Finding out about some skills like chains is impossible without equipment. Power is only the other half of Attack (attribute), the other being weapon max damage. Many skills also deal more damage than some others, as you know. Savage Leap and Hamstring have the same skill damage, but Sever Artery is less powerful. Mediggo 12:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Tooltip numbers are based on Power only, not on Attack, so as long as your equipped weapon doesn't have an upgrade that boosts Power, the weapon strength doesn't change anything. (I've tested this.) —Dr Ishmael 13:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, then that sure makes things more simple. Mediggo 14:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Likewise, as long as you don't equip weapons with Power bonuses, it's possible to document chain skills without significant issues. What I'm curious to learn is if there is a linear progression of numbers and Power. Erasculio 15:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Yep, it's linear, just like green numbers in GW1. Except that we don't know exactly where Anet is defining the scale (0-15 in GW1, 0-??? in GW2), and it's a much larger scale. Character level also seems to factor in somehow, but I haven't figured that part out yet. Hopefully after this BWE I'll have enough data to nail it down. —Dr Ishmael 18:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I have verified it myself, and yes, the skill numbers change linearly based on Power. I think we should document numbers at 1.000 Power, then - from there, it's easy to derivate what the number will be both in smaller values (like 100 and 500) or bigger values like 2.500. Erasculio 02:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

You mean, saying that if the damage at 1000 Power is 480, then the damage at 100 Power is 48? That's only valid if the intercept of the linear equation is always 0. For most skills, it's not.

916 is a good constant because it is easy to obtain in-game - be level 80 and remove any effects that increase Power. 1000 is not easy to obtain, because you have to be level 80 and then find the right combination of effects to give exactly +84 Power. —Dr Ishmael 03:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

At 916 Power, Strike does 195 damage and Symbol of Wrath does 134 damage.

At 1910 Power, Strike does 406 damage and Symbol of Wrath does 279.

1910 is 2.08 times 916. 406 is 2.08 times 195. 279 is 2.08 times 134. It's not exact, but at least for high values it appears to be some kind of simple linear following. Erasculio 04:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) All skills^* are now updated with Damage numbers at 916 Power, Healing numbers at 0 Healing, and no extra effects from traits. Condition/boon durations are currently unaffected by the bonuses to Condition Duration or Boon Duration stats from spending trait points. This means we now have an underlying standard for all skill effects across the wiki. Discussion on what that standard should be can continue, but at least we have an existing standard to start from.

* Exceptions:

• Drowning skills - I haven't found a way to take damage underwater in the PvP lobby (other than necromancer self-damage, but that takes too long). If anyone has suggestions on how to attempt this for BWE3, I'm listening.
• Racial skills - in BWE1, racial skills were still displayed in the Slot skills pane of the Hero window when in PvP, even though they couldn't be equipped; in BWE2, they were hidden in PvP. In PvE, slot skills in tiers that are still locked show a "This skill is locked" tooltip rather than the skill's normal tooltip. There doesn't seem any reliable way to get racial skill data anymore other than leveling a character to 30 in order to unlock all tiers of utilities and elites.
• Pet skills - I will update tomorrow. The default stats on pets are not 916 across the board - although most pets in the same family have the same default stats. Pet skills' effects in BWE2 were not altered by the pet's stats when improved by Beastmastery, so I cannot confirm whether they follow the same scaling patterns as player skills.

—Dr Ishmael 04:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Could it be possible to take sufficient damage from the NPCs and then flee into water? I think pet skills should be documented with power value that is most typical to that particular family or creature, even if it is not exactly the same, but I think that's part of comparison if some animals have higher power or other attributes than others. Mediggo 06:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much the argument I used for documenting player skills at 916 Power - it's the "default" power for a character/pet at level 80. Each pet's default level 80 attributes should be documented on the pet's page, and that pet's skills should be documented at those values. If different pets in the same family have different Power values (there are a couple like this), the shared skills should be at the most common Power value. —Dr Ishmael 13:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like to see the multipliers (power, healing power, ...) somewhere on each skill. It's easier to analyze damage and effectiveness with normalized floating point numbers. First of you can easily convert these numbers in percent values, secondly you don't have to deal with dividing each number with 916 (and having rounding issues). Just as an example: with the knowledge of recharging times, casting times and multipliers it could be possible to describe an average efficiency of a weapon by just one number in dependence of the attributes of a character. Because of the downscaling feature in the game these numbers could be very precise, because it would only take some time to note the numbers while routing through different level areas. 79.244.104.173 02:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

20?

Coulda sworn that all my tier 2 elites were 30. Which really was what kept me from getting any of them. Redshift 03:57, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... well, I just got that from a guildmate who supplied it from memory, so I don't have any screenshots, unfortunately (I only got my character to L28 because I spent the majority of the weekend capturing skill data in the PvP lobby). Would be great if someone could post a screenshot. —Dr Ishmael 04:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I found a couple posts on the official forums and GW2Guru that referred to a 10/30 setup. But someone also just updated Signet of Rage to 15, not 10. So I'm confused. And tired. I go sleep now. —Dr Ishmael 04:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Elite Skill Cost

I've been surfing through all the skill pages, trying to pass time until the next beta, and since I can't double check anything in game, I generally just ignore any inconsistencies I come across. However, the cost of Elite Skills has been really bugging me of late as I'm trying to plan what order I want to unlock skills. During my time as a human guardian in the BWE2, I could have sworn that all of my elite skills were either 10 points or 30. This is consistent with the Skill page, but inconsistent with the pages for the individual skills. On top of that, nearly every elite skill page I come across has a skill cost different from 10/30. Is this just due to lag in updating the pages, or is the new 10/30 system not fully confirmed. If it is just lag, is there any way to compile a list of which skills are 10 points, and which are 30, so they can be appropriately updated? Initia Nova 00:35, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I've found a couple YouTube videos showing some of the elite skills, and their updated costs. I'm going to update the skills that I can confirm via YouTube videos, but I doubt I'll find most of them. Initia Nova 00:57, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Updated what skills I could find on YouTube. After scanning all the elites, Engineer and Charr elites still need to be updated. The Charr ones look fairly obvious, but without confirmation I didn't want to change them. The Engineer elites are a bit trickier, especially since the most expensive Thief elite from BWE1 (25 points) ended up only costing 10 skill points in BWE2. Sadly, the Engineer profession is the only one I really cared about atm. Initia Nova 02:25, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The "Skill point" template

Is it necessary? I mean, wouldn't it be simpler just to create a {{#vardefine:skillpoint|<span style="position:relative; bottom:3px;">[[Image:Skill point.png|20px|Skill point]]</span>}} and retrieve it with {{#var:skillpoint}}? As of now only 4 pages use this template, and it's just an image within a <span>. – Valento ^msg 23:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

One thing that could be done (and could be applied to recharge, and any other skill-specific property information retrieval template) would be to leave the skill name parameter as optional, so that only the skill icon would be displayed and dpl wouldn't try to find the respective information. – Valento ^msg 23:19, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Healing Skill Costs

It mentions the 3rd profession skill and racial skill for healing costing 4 skill points. But on the Sylvari racial skill page it says Healing Seed is 3 points and the Human racial skill page has Prayer to Dwayna at 6 points. Maybe it would be best to remove Racial Skills from the 4 Point section and make a note someplace about the 2 racial healing skills and their cost? BioMasterZap 15:41, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, I just notices that I mentions Skill Points are earned by Skill Challenges and does not mention leveling as a way to gain them. "Slot skills must be purchased with skill points accumulated via completion of skill challenges scattered throughout the game in PvE and WvW environments." While I missed last Stress Test, I do remember gaining points from leveling. So unless it was changed, it should get a mention there. I am not very good with editing, so I'll let someone else fix that. BioMasterZap 15:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Updated information applied inconsistently across the wiki. Healing skills are 3 sp; gaining skill points from leveling is mentioned at skill point. —Dr Ishmael 16:24, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Since when were the healing skills all changed to 3 though? Seems a bit odd how it only it only costs 57 skill points to get all the human racial skills while others like charr cost 60. I guess 3 points isn't that big of a difference though. 6 was a lot for a healing skill. BioMasterZap 23:21, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Norns have to spend 64sp, because they have 4 elites. —Dr Ishmael 00:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Kills to next skill?

Has this been documented? Every beta I think about it but then forget to count... I thought this might be a nice thing to put on this page... FardaleFeedback

You mean how many kills are needed to unlock each weapon skill? I thought I'd seen that somewhere already, but yes, it should be here. —Dr Ishmael 13:46, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Since the release there was a very cool gap which works like (indicating the percentage of completion per weapon skill slot per kill): 100%(2) 50%(3) 20%(4) 10%(5). Since a recent update it is 'downgraded' to what it was during BWE: 33%(2) 16.5%(3) 7.5%(4) 5%(5). Which leads to 18 monster for a full bar to 41... The concept is good but IMO it shouldn't be a bothersome task and with 5 chars+ it may be... Freetiger 14:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Utility skill tiers

Just going to put it here rather than put it in some individual profession skills discussion page. Wouldn't it be nice if the Utility skill section for every profession were dived in to tiers or if the table at least had a tier column in so one can see what tier a given skill is in as well as sort by tier (since it's the way they are divided in-game). Tiers are listed when you go to the page of a skill but it wouldn't it be handy to have on profession pages as well? --Leonick 08:25, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You can sort by skill points. That's the same as sorting by tier. Chad 08:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

That works I guess... It messes up the skill listing for skills that turn in to another skill when used though or in the case of the engineer have a toolbelt skill, in these cases they all go to the top as they are "free". Just saying it'd be nice, though I suppose there might be a bit much work to it too. --Leonick 11:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Making groups of rows sort together is extremely complicated. When tiers were introduced, we had a discussion about this, and the community decided to keep the default sort by type instead of changing it to tier. —Dr Ishmael 12:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Well it wasn't very hard to change the default list order at least (see my user page, I sorted by tier and alphabetically), worst part with that was how horrendously slow the wiki is at the moment. Still, as noted the skillpoint cost tells you the tier and I'm not sure listing by tier is so much better than listing by type that it would be worth reordering all healing, utility and elite the skills on the profession pages --Leonick 14:44, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Activation

I've only tried this on the necro Mark skills and Grasping Dread, but it seems like if you CTRL + Mouse 2 click on a ground targeted skill, the skill icon changes to a silver outline with a padlock on the top outline indicating that there is no auto-cast option for this skill. If anyone can confirm this is the meaning, then it should probably be added to the Activation section. BladeDVD 20:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Reading Skill Damage

For the sake of clarity, can we add a section on how to properly read the damage of a skill? There are several which use a (xN) style of notation, while others explicitly declare "Number of [Attacks]". Examples are Pistol Whip and Unload.

If we can clarify how these notations translate to attacks dealt and total damage, it would be a great help to new players. I suspect the multiplier is only shorthand for total attacks.

Please go even one step further, what i want to know are the effective DPS calculated against cast time as well as hits/second because this is relevant for crit triggered effects. So far most (but not all) skills using the (xN) style seem to show the total amount of damage dealt by all hits whereby skills with "Number of [Attacks]" usually show the effect per projectile. 188.110.29.135 18:05, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Add range to all the profession skill tables?

I constantly find myself clicking on a skill to see its range, should that be added to the skill tables? Or does that lead to adding damage, effects, etc? Or would the tables be better without the description and just showing the raw data like the range, damage, etc.? PixelMatt 21:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I came here to ask of the same.--Knighthonor (talk) 16:19, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Time to Use a Skill

I've noticed that the default auto-attack skills for the guardian (all the #1 weapon skills)—or at least many of them, I haven't done exhaustive testing—seem to have a total execution time roughly 2/3 longer than their activation times. For example, when auto-attacking with a hammer, the sum of the activation times listed for all skills in the chain is 2.25 seconds, but completing 3 full combos consistently takes me longer than the weapon swap cooldown (10 seconds)—and it seems I'm not the only one to notice, as someone else reports similar times on the skill page.

What causes this? Is there some sort of global after-cast delay that isn't reflected in tooltips? Is this a problem specifically with autocasting? Does it affect other classes, or other skills? --Felbryn 09:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they started mentioning "Aftercast" times in the April 2013 update release notes, where they've reduced it by 0.5s for several thief and warrior skills. --Alad 21:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Skill types complicated

I suggest classifying skills which drastically influence the activation method of a skill as "activation type". Skills which are only defined as certain skill types of individual professions for the purpose of characterizing them and allowing utilizing of traits as "utility types" or something similiarly identifying.

There's no channeled signets or traps, or charged transformations, so it should be established that activation types are mutually exclusive with each another while it is possible for skills to have a type of activation while still belonging to (multiple) specific "utility" categories of skills which characterize the professions and are affected by certain traits. When it comes to activation types, I believe that all the following qualify as a type of activation:

• Chain - the skill chains to another skill which can only be activated within short duration of the previous skill's activation
• Channeled - effect while skill activates
• Charged - effect of the skill depends on how long it was being activated
• Sequence - the skill becomes another skill upon activation
• Shouts are always instantly activated
• Signets provide a passive effect so technically they're always "active" as in providing an effect on the user except when recharging
• Traps and their actual effects are triggered by foes - stealth doesn't break on use of traps so it doesn't "activate" until triggering unlike Infiltrator's Arrow which breaks stealth even if you don't hit foes

Transform is the only real oddball, but it really seems more like an effect of a skill than skill type, despite that the skill descriptions mention "Transform" in them (emphasis on the word describe, instead of providing absolute data based on game mechanics).

Notable examples of skills with an activation and utility type are Symbol of Protection, Mark of Horror and Elixir X. There are also some "skill types" which aren't really skill types at all; for example, minion is merely a descriptive identification for a skill which creates minions, such as Mark of Horror (which is a mark) or Taste of Death (which is a "minion skill" but isn't actually affected by any traits or other effects). All the traits which affect minions affect the minions themselves instead of the skills which create them. Similiarly, spirit weapon is not a skill type (a proper definition would be "spirit weapon skill" as in Spirit Weapon Mastery, the only trait to affect the skills themselves instead of creatures summoned by the skills). However, separating them from other types of skills would only create more confusion and the use of traits which affect them is still closely related to the use of the skills so they're still acceptable.

Many of the skill types I listed are already defined as activation types in skill infoboxes.

Skill type and activation type are distinct things. Many skills that have no skill type still have a special activation type. It is true that many skill types always have a certain activation type, like shouts are always instant, but if you look at stealth skills, some of them are channeled and some of them are just plain attacks. They're not the same thing, they are separate properties of a skill.

I think "chain" is the only skill type that is currently misplaced under the activation type parameter in the infobox. I've wanted to correct that for the past year, but I never remember when I have time to do anything about it. —Dr Ishmael 00:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Symbol of Protection is still by all definitions chain symbol and traps are actually only activated when an enemy triggers them. And all minion and spirit weapon skills are sequence skills, and so forth. Are you referring to skills which grant stealth or Stealth Attacks? I assume the latter, and what difference does that make? They're not really a skill type at all, since they lack all the distinctive mechanics when the skills actually activate, and they are not affected by any traits either, afaik. Mediggo (talk) 01:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Stealth Attack is a skill type.--Relyk ~ talk > 04:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course I was referring to Stealth Attack, and why does it matter that no traits refer to that skill type? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Let's pick another example that does have traits - Dual wield. Flanking Strike is a sequence skill. Unload and Repeater are channeled. Death Blossom and Shadow Shot have standard activation. Simply because most skill types have a uniform activation type doesn't mean it's the same thing. Correlation does not equal causation.

Skill types are explicitly identified in the skill tooltip, I don't see how anyone can argue with that. Activation types, on the other hand, are not identified by the game and have to be assigned by us the players as we observe how the skill functions. —Dr Ishmael 04:37, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Skill type names identified in skill descriptions are only descriptive instead of delivered from internal game mechanic systems. They are only displayed as to provide players information that these skills behave in a certain way, and are notable absent in some skills such as racial skills (charr racial shout, transforms, etc.). When it comes to skills like glamors or tricks, they essentially behave without any distinctive mechanics and are only labeled as glamors and tricks to allow players to see which traits can be used to modify them. Symbol of Protection is hammer chain symbol because it is affected by symbol traits (as well as hammer and two-handed traits) and its activation type is chained, meaning that the skill must be activated within short time of previous chain skill's activation. Dual Wield skills (as well as the similiar Stealth Attack) on the other hand have more to do with the slot mechanics of skills as shown by Larcenous Strike bug which displays to not chain from only Flanking Strike Dual Wield but any of the slot #3 sword skills (incorrectly). Also, channeled skills are affected by elementalist and necromancer traits, and when it comes to actual, mechanical functions of skills, they all have scope (targets a single foe or has area of effect) as well as a activation duration during which they apply their effects. Channeled vs. charged vs. regular activation only differs in what happens during the duration of the skill being executed so they aren't really very unique it terms of skill activation because it's more dependant on the mechanics of invididual skills.

Anyhow, I don't want to complicate things further so just never mind the above. What I'm after is a more streamlined presentation and categorization of skill types, especially when it comes to skill type navi template and skill infobox. I'd get rid of "modifiers" and especially "AoE" because what is a "modifier type" isn't established anywhere and area of effect is not a skill type. I can live with signet, shout, trap and transform listed as "shared types" but chain, sequence, channeled and charged all greatly affect how the skills are activated or become active, in contrast to the skill activation mechanic, and in my opinion they'd deserve to be called activation types. Mediggo (talk) 12:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

So if skill type is only descriptive, as you suggest, while activation type is mechanical, why are you trying to conflate them into the same thing? —Dr Ishmael 13:08, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Skill types are like classes, while the skills are the objects. All skills can technically belong to any number of classes. But for the purposes of gameplay, skills usually belong to only one activation type and one profession-specific type, in addition to "weapon type" for weapon skills and some others (like how you gain Weapon Master progress towards sword achievement with some ele skills, they belong to sword skill class). And as I said, I want to do this to simplify presentation of skill types and get rid of terms that are neither used nor explained anywhere, such as "modifier" in the skill navi template, in addition to categorizing all non profession specific skill types under one term with the reasoning that they all have a distinct method of becoming active. Mediggo (talk) 13:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why you're concerned with profession-specific skill types versus shared skill types, is there really a difference? So what if two professions have trap skills, why does that make traps different from mantras?

As far as the navbox goes, rename "Modifiers" to "Activation types" and remove AoE. —Dr Ishmael 14:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Mantras are only a set of skills which chain to sequence skills which are available so long as the mantra effects stay on the user. They are only different from regular sequence skills in that they can be activated more than once and that there are traits which specifically effect them as a "family" of skills. And as I explained, the effects and the actual use of traps only activate when an enemy triggers them, even if the skill must be activated by the player to place the trap. And no, the differences between shared and profession skill types are only that the shared types tend to differ from their method of activation more radically than profession specific skill types. Skills which summon objects or creatures are only "summon skills" and they are identified as belonging to certain family of skills for the purpose of use of traits. Minion skills and spirit weapon skills only differ in what kind of creatures they produce. There is virtually no difference between skill types such as tricks and survivals, except that they are used by different professions. The skill types listed as "shared" are much more distinctive. You might have read about devs making a comparison between virtues and signets, even going as far as actually calling them signets, if my memory serves right, but virtues are of course not affected by signet traits and vice versa. Mediggo (talk) 14:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

"the differences between shared and profession skill types are only that the shared types tend to differ from their method of activation more radically than profession specific skill types." I'm completely lost here. A signet is a signet regardless of whether it's a guardian signet or a mesmer signet, it provides a passive effect when not on cooldown and can be activated for a different effect. All shouts have instant activation. Ranger and thief traps have the same mechanics. What am I missing? Why are these skill types different from types that are only available to one profession? —Dr Ishmael 15:33, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I went and compiled a table detailing the activation style (maybe if we don't use "type" twice it will be less confusing) of all the skill types. The most inconsistent skill type is actually Clone, a profession-specific type.

Skill type	Activation style
Shout	Instant
Signet	Instant; provides passive effect when not on cooldown (some professions have trait to retain passive effect on cooldown)
Trap	Standard; trap is triggered by foe
Virtue	Instant; provides passive effect when not on cooldown
Consecration	Standard
Meditation	Standard (instant when traited)
Spirit Weapon	Standard + Sequence, sequence skill destroys summon (except if traited)
Symbol	Standard
Tome	Standard; causes Transform
Ward	Standard
Burst	Standard
Banner	Standard
Physical	Standard
Stance	Instant
Kit	Instant + Sequence; equips a volatile bundle item
Elixir	Standard
Gadget	Standard
Turret	Standard + Sequence
Spirit	Standard + Sequence
Survival	Standard
Deception	Standard
Dual Wield	Varies
Stealth Attack	Varies
Trick	Standard
Venom	Standard
Arcane	Instant
Cantrip	Instant
Conjure	Standard; equips a volatile bundle item
Glyph	Standard
Clone	Standard (most weapon skills), Instant (utility skills) Illusionary Counter and Illusionary Riposte are channeled; both those and Illusionary Leap have Sequence
Glamour	Standard
Manipulation	Instant
Mantra	Channeled + Sequence; sequence has multiple uses
Phantasm	Standard
Corruption	Standard
Mark	Standard; mark is triggered by foe
Minion	Standard + Sequence; some sequences destroy summon
Spectral	Varies
Well	Standard

—Dr Ishmael 16:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I mean that there is no key differences in methods of activation between the various types of profession specific skill types like survivals, tricks or physicals. The only differences between glamors and wells is that glamors are location-targeted by default. Spirit weapon skills and minions skills are identical except in what kind of creatures they summon, and so worth. But shared types like signets or traps differ greatly in how their effects actually become active. However, as you can see from the way I edited the navi, if we associate channeled and charged as the only different types of skill activation – whether the skill is executed during the activation time or only after the activation time is complete. Sequence skills don't have anything to do with the actual activation time/period of the skills, though, and so it doesn't really fit there, unless we also classify chain and trap are different types of skill activation. Mediggo (talk) 16:31, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Let me try to simplify that. You're saying that because A and B are similar even though A belongs to X and B belongs to Y, yet C and D are completely different although X and Y can both use them, that puts C and D in a separate category from A and B. That doesn't make any sense. If we follow your logic, then the shared Shout type is identical to the profession-specific Stance, Arcane, and Cantrip types; Traps are essentially the same as Marks; and as you mentioned earlier, Virtues are identical to Signets. There is nothing special about skill types that are used by more than one profession. —Dr Ishmael 17:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Traps and marks are not quite the same because marks are visible but they are still essentially a modification of trap activation mechanism similiar to how virtues are a variation of signet mechanics. And yes, the only real difference between shouts and all those instant cast profession specific skill types is that the profession types are specific to those profession and they are affected by different traits. What I'm after here is that the shared skill types are distinct amongst themselves, unlike profession specific skill types. Chains, sequence skills, traps, signets and shouts all possess a unique style of providing their active effects in comparison to profession specific skill types which are, in most cases, only differentiated by that they are affected by different traits and they often carry a similiar theme. Glamors and wells are almost identical, but signets and chains are not. Mediggo (talk) 18:08, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Why isn't my point getting through? Whether a skill type is exclusive to a profession or used by multiple professions doesn't matter. There is nothing special about shouts/signets/traps. —Dr Ishmael 18:29, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I think at this point I'm inclined to agree with Ish. Skill types are just a categorization, that may/may not have to do with how it activates or acts. Activations can be shared by multiple types. --JonTheMon (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I've said it a number of times already why signets and traps all have unique method of activating their effects. I'm not going to repeat that again. I can see I'm not getting through with you guys, so I'm just going to drop this subject for good and never even look at skill types again. Mediggo (talk) 20:56, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion, and if the navbox is not the issue here, but qualifying the skills' types is, then I think it would be a great addition to the wiki to have a page with a table listing all the skills in rows (by profession for easy reading), and all the types in columns with an (X) in each cell showing which types the skill belongs to. Types can then include their functionality, like ranged/melee, number of targets, activation, does direct damage, applies effects, creates a hotspot, breaks stun, etc... If the skill infoboxes contain this information (most of them should do, except number of targets and maybe other details), this list can be auto-generated! Yay! One can then easily see what "type" of skill it is, and what other skills have in common with it. --Alad (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

(Reset indent) "Types can then include their functionality" Unfortunately, not all types are uniform enough for this; just look at clones. Most are standard skills, but two of them are channeled and two of them are instant (as I noted above), and they appear in 3 different contexts: weapon, utility, and downed. Also, the majority of weapon skills don't have a type. —Dr Ishmael 00:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

By that I meant the many column headers, of this list of skills, which we will call "types" for convenience, and which are something we will determine according to skill behaviors, and which will include one column, maybe called "In-game Type" (which will contain words such as "Clone", "Symbol", "Trap", "Shout", etc.. for each skill). The rest of the columns will be as I mentioned above (instant, channeled, charged, melee/ranged/thrown, number of targets, summoning, downed, weapon skill, etc... Everything is possible here that makes sense). Since you will be listing all the skills, not just the skill "types", all the "clone" skills will be there and the differences between them will be clear. I hope that makes more sense. --Alad (talk) 01:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that explanation makes a lot more sense. —Dr Ishmael 01:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Feedback 2017/08/03

The Scourge and Mirage icons are wrong/switched, as far as the YouTube videos go.

"Beast" Skills

Should Beast skills (found on base Ranger's pets, and Soulbeasts' F# abilities) be added to the table? PanBelacqua (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

GWW tag

← moved to Guild Wars 2 Wiki:Community portal#GWW tag