Talk:Whisper of Jormag

Merge

Why is this a suggestion? Whisper of Jormag and Jormag itself are two different things. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.159.131 (talk).

"This is but a piece of me. An ambassador. The whisper that spreads my words."

The Whisper of Jormag is literally a piece of Jormag. Just as Kralkatorrik's Torment is a piece of Kralkatorrik (or the "Weak Point"s in the Dragonfall meta, or The End instance). Konig (talk) 08:59, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Jormag's tooth is also a piece of Jormag, but we have a separate article for that! --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 07:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Jormag's tooth is just an object, though; the Whisper of Jormag is more like an avatar. We have a separate article for Kralk's Weak Points because they're essentially just mindless objects that happen to be attached to him, but Kralkatorrik's Torment redirects to Kralkatorrik because it represents the dragon himself. —Idris 10:00, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, then all mordrem represent Mordremoth :P! Seriously, what about Blighted Caithe and the rest in Hearts and Minds? It's literally mordremoth because we're in his mind! At some point an NPC warrants its own article. The Whisper is the boss of a strike mission. Slaying the Whisper of Jormag does not actually kill Jormag, so it's confusing to merge the articles. Also the description says "Gather your allies and relive the battle against the Ice Dragon's most persuasive servant yet." You're not literally battling the ice dragon. For the record I also disagree with not splitting Kralkatorrik's Torment. We even have an article for Kralkatorrik's Heart! --BuffsEverywhere (talk) 10:35, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Mordrem don't represent Mordremoth as they are indeed separate entities, same with Blighted Caithe and other Blighted during Hearts and Minds - they're actual individual illusions conjured by Mordremoth, not actually Mordremoth (otherwise we wouldn't be able to convert them, duh). Examples of "shared entities" include:

• Mouth of Mordremoth / Mordremoth (aka Avatar of Mordremoth) / File:Face of Mordremoth.jpg
• Fraenir of Jormag in story, meta, and strike.
• Kralkatorrik, Kralkatorrik's Weak Point / Kralkatorrik's Eye, Kralkatorrik's Weak Point, Weak Point, and Kralkatorrik's Torment.

Slaying the Mouth of Mordremoth does not actually kill Mordremoth, just as killing Kralkatorrik's Eye, or the weak points, or Kralk's Torment, didn't kill Kralkatorrik. The three are very similar situations. Jormag outright states that the Whisper of Jormag is not a servant but a piece of itself despite the strike mission description.

If we were to keep this separate, and separate Kralkatorrik's Torment, then I would separate every singular instance above. I for one, do not think we need to make a separation of articles for the Faenir because "it's confusing to merge the articles" because slaying one doesn't slay the other. Nor do we need an article for Kralkatorrik's Eye. I would even suggest merging Kralkatorrik's Heart into Kralkatorrik. I would also suggest merging Right Arm, Left Arm, and Conjured Amalgamate. Konig (talk) 15:38, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot with your own argument here by saying that Kralk's weak points are shared entities with Kralk. I just pointed out that we have a separate article for them! To be honest, while I do think it's ok to redirect back to the dragon's main article in cases like Mouth of Mordremoth, where it's very clearly just another form the dragon takes on, I do think we have to draw a line somewhere, and I'm not entirely sure the Whisper of Jormag belongs on the merge-with-dragon side of it. —Idris 21:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

You may want to go beyond the search bar, because Kralkatorrik's Eye and Kralkatorrik's Weak Point are redirects to Kralkatorrik, and I would argue the only value Kralkatorrik's Heart has as separate, is because it's technically an object not an NPC, but even then, I'd suggest merging as above. Konig (talk) 00:45, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I still feel like many of these examples are crossing the line. It's useful to have separate articles for mobs/objects sometimes, as they immediately show the reader a screenshot and all relevant info. Redirects to the dragon's article forces them to scroll through a bunch of lore they're probably not interested in right now. That's why I'm okay with really obvious alternate forms like the Mouth of Mordremoth, but not smaller pieces like the weak points. I think whether or not the Whisper counts as an alternate form of Jormag is going to vary between users, in which case I feel like we should probably default to keeping it separate. —Idris 00:50, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, just wanna add this: npc named "Whisper of Jormag" is a Strike Mission boss, whereas "The Whisper of Jormag" is how it is named in the story. Lovely consistency. ~SimeTalk 01:04, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

"I think whether or not the Whisper counts as an alternate form of Jormag is going to vary between users, in which case I feel like we should probably default to keeping it separate." Shouldn't it instead be, we should default to which is accurate? Otherwise we're creating a false understanding of information. Scrolling or not, lies are lies and truth is truth. Besides which, there is zero information to gain on this page for the strike, that Strike_Mission:_Whisper_of_Jormag#Walkthrough doesn't provide. Hence why it's fine to have Fraenir of Jormag be a nice lengthy scroll before any skills section. Konig (talk) 01:17, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

The trouble with "truth is truth" is that we're talking about labels, which are arbitrary descriptions of reality, which tends to be fuzzy and full of exceptions -- especially when we're talking about fiction created by ANet! The Whisper being an alternate form of Jormag and being a separate entity can both be true at the same time, and we'll be here all day if we try to figure out which one is "more" true. Instead, we should focus our efforts on what's useful. —Idris 01:27, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Putting those on separate articles was a mistake, and those articles should be separated especially because they're in-game as a boss. They're not even summons of the monster in a MOBA or something. --— Cronos 21:00, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with separating strike mission bosses (like this Whisper of Jormag without 'The') into their own articles as a recent dev Guild Chat suggested that the foes we fight in the Bjora Marches arenas aren't canonically the same NPCs as the ones encountered in story (e.g. fraenir, whisper) but more like Jormag using corrupted Raven magic to mess with our minds in order to make us fight shadows. However, if the wiki intends to go along with also separating actual pieces/avatars of the Elder Dragons into their own articles as well (as has now happened with the sudden addition of The Whisper of Jormag story foe article without the editors reaching a consensus first either on the wiki or in Discord) when previously we've kept them as part of their main articles, then the rest of the articles need to follow suit for every variant of a named NPC so we remain consistent with this change. So for Mordremoth we'd need to create an article for its different forms like the Mouth of Mordremoth (fought in Dragon's Stand) and Avatar of Mordremoth (the entity we fight in the Dream) and have them link to the main article for Mordremoth, just like we'd then need to create separate articles for Baby Aurene, Adolescent Aurene, and Elder Dragon Aurene to remain consistent with the different forms of the same dragon. Same should also apply for other NPCs who return in different forms in story or open world, e.g. Archon Iberu vs. Awakened Iberu, Ferghen the Tracker vs. Risen Ferghen, Howl the Brazen vs. Risen Howl, Faolain vs. Vinetooth Faolain, Caudecus vs. Bloodstone Abomination Caudecus etc. Thoughts? --Kossage (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you on splitting the Strike Boss, Kossage. Personally, I disagree with splitting same npc (like mentioned Aurene, Modremoth) on different pages, since they are the same entity/part of that entity. Most other wikis use "Alias/Known also as" (Combat abilities / pictures basically serve this purpose for us) in their infobox for these cases, and do not usually split the characters even if they have different models and names, but are still the same entity. ~SimeTalk 22:03, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm in disagreement with any splitting in general. Walkthroughs go on dungeon/strike/raid/fractal pages, so I see no reason to split them, least for the sake of "because they're high-end content". The only information on these pages that is remotely useful to people looking up is the combat section, which would be denoted separately and cleanly (or should be).

With the rest, that just creates a huge pain of separation - we do not need three versions of Caudecus to differentiate sane, bloodstone crazed, and bloodstone abomination versions, when the latter two have a grand total screentime of 3 minutes. And if we did that, we would also need to split raid/strike/etc. bosses that have multiple appearances, like Matthias' normal and bloodstone abomination versions, that occur in the same fight (it's already ridiculous we have Conjured Amalgamate, Left Arm, and Right Arm).

Not only does splitting just explode the number of pages by well over a hundred, it makes documenting lore to be tedious and easily potentially redundant as well. It would be far easier on all accounts to merge all related pages of one entity, and create redirects as needed. The only reason for a split would be major story spoilers, ala gww:Kormir and gww:Goddess of Truth. And the only case I can see for such in GW2 would be Aurene (and even I, who's in favor of 3 pages for Aurene by spoilers - egg, non-Elder, and Elder forms) find that a flimsy argument given how spoiler-open ANet is. Konig (talk) 23:15, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

So just document the lore once on the main article.

NPC pages should mechanically match what is ingame. If you really feel the need to put lore on all remotely relevant pages, why not use either a see also section or the "main" template. -90.212.47.235 23:34, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Image

The one in the strike mission appears to use a staff (the Chaos Staff from memory) whereas the story version doesn't seem to. Is a separate image warranted? Sunlion (talk) 07:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)