Talk:Firstborn

Firstborn

So. Could it be a social class among the Sylvari? Thought? --_{I Am}Legion talk 17:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

that'd be cool, hopefully soon they will give us an interview about the social classes.--♥Icyyy♥ 11:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Firstborn as a social class (that you can choose at character creation)? That just sounds odd at best. I'm tempted to say that all player characters will be firstborn along with Caithe just to make them adults, playing as a teenager would be weird. Though, it is a bit unfortunate just how little we know about sylvari. We know there's an "evil" Nightmare Court, 4 seasons by time of birth that affect looks, that their racial skills will have the most healing orientation of the 5 races, and that's about it, we don't even know the exact definition of a firstborn. Hopefully they'll be the first race to be discussed in-depth. Rose Of Kali 13:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Well interviews have stated that the Sylvari are adults when they "awaken from the dream"... not teens. So I assume that we will witness our Sylvari characters emerging from the tree at the beginning of the game (which would be awesome, btw). --hnzdvn 13:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That would be awesome. :D So I guess all the teens are just sleeping in their flower buds. Y'know, that's some carefree child care. :P But yeah, I don't think 'firstborn' will be a social class of any kind, but who knows... Rose Of Kali 14:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it will be either, I expect our characters to emerge from the tree young and naive. --hnzdvn 14:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

But then the Sylvari would have the shortest biography of all races. No. I believe that Sylvari characters will have already some experience in the real world. --_{I Am}Legion talk 14:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That's kind of the point though, that they are new to the world and mostly inexperienced. However, I do remember reading in an interview that they had a bad first experience with the Asura who (typically for them) wanted to use the Sylvari as experiment fodder. So they do have at least one "burnt hand" type of event in their very short history. Arshay Duskbrow 14:33, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The sylvari biography will most likely be about one's views on the world and not their personal history. There could also be multiple introduction cinematics based on one's heritage and social class. If so, you could have a firstborn sylvari talking about when s/he was born and didn't know what was going on, or you can have a middle ground sylvari talking about being guided by the firstborn, or you can have a "just been born" sylvari which is learning everything others know via the DoD the instant they're born - how chaotic those thoughts must be. :D Likewise, with other races, the heritage and social class could affect the intro cinematics. It won't be like GW1 with one singular introduction and one singular ending. GW2 will have multiple differences throughout the game. -- Konig/talk 19:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It was stated somewhere that our Sylvari are all firstborn and have been in the world for 25 years, I don't think there are any other kind. Taros 21:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Where was that? Source, please? Also, It did say in one of the recent interveiws (I think that french one) that they inherited memories and knowledge from the Pale Tree Thing. Zolann The Irreverent 22:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it not true that the Sylvari are born with the knowledge of their kind? So the first born would not be the wisest...but the most naive...and the most recent born (whatever the generational number)be the most wise... Book 11:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Right in a way; the knowledge that the firstborn gained was passed on to future generations of sylvari as instinctive knowledge. E.g., wielding a sword is something current sylvari know how to do naturally, but only because older generations learned how to do it first. They don't have knowledge of that action in the sense that the sylvari who learned how to wield a sword do/does because it's simply an instinctive reaction.-- Shew ♠♠♠ 11:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

All depends on how you define "wise" - the Firstborn are wisest in that they have the most experience in the world, but they were born the most naive of all sylvari. The current sylvari know what they know only due to the previous generations and as such are naive themselves, with no experience to go off of. Think of it like a grandparent telling their life story to a baby and the baby actually understanding and remembering it all - the baby only knows about it, but it hasn't experienced it and as such isn't wise, just knowledgeable. -- Konig/talk 22:17, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Chronology

The language in the sourced documents--the Guru post and the blog post--is a bit nebulous in establishing a chronological order of departure. If there is another source, it would be helpful to have that included. Redshift 01:39, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Position in sylvari society

Where is the source for this part: Although they are the closest thing to rulers that exist within the sylvari race, the respect for them comes solely from their wisdom and time spent in the world. It seems like original research. 122.111.184.90 05:01, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/ "The firstborn are the closest thing the sylvari have to rulers, yet the respect they command comes solely from their wisdom and time spent in the world." Section The Grove, third paragraph first sentence. - 05:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

3 firstborn names unknown?

Three firstborn not yet revealed? Could Killeen be firstborn? Ramei Arashi 03:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

No. She isn't. 199.126.37.144 05:30, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe Killeen said she was 4 years old. 213.166.207.170 06:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah I didn't remember that. Ramei Arashi 20:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Amaranda

If the dialogue in A Different Dream is transcribed correctly, then Amaranda the Lonesome is one of the firstborn. I am referring to the line, "She understands its nature more than any other mystic of firstborn". Does anyone have the means to quickly check? --Santax (talk · contribs) 23:00, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

About the Luminaries

There's a logical contradiction in canon:

• Trahearne is the oldest of all sylvari
• Luminaries are the oldest of their cycle.
• Treahearne is not a luminary.

The point of the article is to show the importance of the Firstborn to the sylvari, including the fact that the sylvari have a special term for the first born of the Firstborn in a given cycle. However, it's a distraction to those concepts to get hung up on whether we are talking about the first four, the first five, or #s 2-5, when we don't really know why there's this inconsistency in the canon. It could be that ANet failed to check its own notes, it could be that Treahearne is not considered to be the oldest of his cycle for this particular situation, it could even be that to the sylvari, this isn't a contradiction.

I recommend that we keep the article's intro simple and stick with the well-worded {{anomaly}} (under Notes) to cover the gory details.

In other words, the main idea is that eldest sylvari are special. Which specific ones are the most special is adequately covered by Notes and by the list of sylvari in the article. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 09:00, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Luminaries are not defined as "the oldest of their cycle". The contradiction comes from the fact that the Luminaries each claim to have been born when:

• Aife: "as the sun rose on the first dawn of our race."
• Niamh: "at the zenith of the first day of our race."
• Kahedins: "as the sun first set on our race."
• Malomedies: "on the first night of the sylvari race."

This is purely their own words (during the first and last story instance of chapter 1 - excluding the tutorial of course), and not part of "what a luminary is." Depending on how you interpret the line, it could be that Trahearne was born (if Dawn) after the sunrise, and thus Aife is fifth, or (if Dusk) after the sunset, thus Kahedins was fifth, and neither would be lying since they'd still be born at the first dawn/dusk for the race, whereas Trahearne was born just after on the first day of the race.

The point I've been making with ensuring to note that Trahearne is not a luminary (as there are only four) is that not all luminaries are the first of each cycle.

I'll give the article one final rewording, removing the false note of "the eldest of each cycle is a luminary" part by just denoting that the sylvari race are guided by the luminaries, whom are all firstborn. Konig 18:53, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi there! Just dropping into the conversation after noticing Trahearne was listed as a luminary and wondering why there were two dusk luminaries checked in the article. I'm assuming this should be changed still? I didn't want to just edit since there was discussion but it's been quite some time. Industria (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Recently Revealed Firstbonr

It appears as though we know the names of at least two more Firstborn. From the Seeds of Truthe release we meet Wynne (probably named after the GW2W editor) and Ainne (another wiki editor). I think Wynne is Night. 58.106.130.138 19:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Wynne is night. Ainne is just a Mender, nothing hints to her being a firstborn as I saw. Plus if she was, she'd have been at the gathering - Riannoc was dead already (and this should have been known, despite Melomedies and Caithe apparently not), and the other two missing are simply unknown to players.

So now we know all three Night Firstborn. Konig

Also, while The late Wynn was a well known wiki editor, Wynne is a Welsh name, fitting with the common sylvari naming scheme. The name means blessed, white, fair n which matches Wynne's in-game model. Konig 21:02, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, Riannoc wasn't the first to die. He was the first (only?) Firtborn to die. Talk to Malomedes in the first instance, he says 3 (nameless?) Secondborn died and refers to Riannoc being away. 107.219.56.95 03:30, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Malomedies merely states worry about Riannoc who has been away for a long time - basically, Malomedies doesn't know whether Riannoc's state of being. This doesn't mean he's still alive at the point - just that Malomedies doesn't know he's dead (or alive). Of course, this itself is a retcon as both Caithe and the Pale Tree stated that Riannoc's death was felt throughout the Dream (and affected it), and it questions how they know Riannoc died first. There's also the possibility that only Malomedies doesn't know (when Riannoc's death is first canonically mentioned, Malomedies was completely out of it in a near-death due to having been experimented on by the asura), but that begs the question: why wasn't he told? But again, nothing outright states Riannoc wasn't first to die. Konig 05:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Riannoc/Dagonet's cycles?

So I could've sworn that there was some dialogue in the game, either with Dagonet himself or with one of the other Firstborn, that confirmed Dagonet's status as a Dawn bloom. Even if it's not explicitly stated ingame, from the description given of Dawn cycle sylvari's natural diplomacy, and his status as an apparent diplomat in Divinity's Reach it can be construed that he is a Dawn bloom. Likewise with Riannoc, it was stated that he was "valiant as the shining sun" and was idealistic and direct, clearly characteristic of a Noon sylvari.

Have we gotten any further confirmation on either of these from Word Of God/ingame dialogues? --Gyllbane (talk) 09:26, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Not as far as I or Titus were able to find, hence why they're not specified. Though Dawn and Noon is most likely, given the other two cycles have all Firstborn known. Konig 17:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

A reference to the biblical 12 Apostles?

Or just a coincidence? --210.186.163.10 23:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not a direct reference, but sylvari lore borrows from biblical sources along with the fantasy themes.--Relyk ~ talk < 23:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Riannoc's profession

Riannoc is described in the page as a 'warrior', yet I'm pretty sure that in the Secrets in the Earth instance, story instance, Riannoc uses guardian skills. Might be worth having someone confirm this and update if correct. Draxynnic (talk) 12:07, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Timeline and potential discrepancies

I've been discussing firstborn lore with User:Konig Des Todes on Discord, and we've attempted to pin down the timeline of events in their early lives. (Various sources were used here, but the main one was Dream and Nightmare.)

1. Trahearne awakens, followed, in order, by: Kahedins, Wynne, Malomedies, Aife, and Niamh. The other six may have been born in between some of these awakenings, or they may arrive over the next day or so, it's not clear.
2. Nothing interesting happens for two goddamn years. (Possible that Caithe, Faolain, Riannoc, and/or Trahearne leave the Grove during this period, but (a) they all somehow avoid being seen by other races, and (b) all come home again in time for #3.)
3. Cadeyrn awakens. At some point between this step and #11, Serimon awakens.
4. Earliest point at which the aforementioned explorers leave the Grove (again, if need be).
5. Malomedies encounters the asura and is captured.
6. Latest point at which the aforementioned explorers leave the Grove.
7. Riannoc meets the human Waine and takes him on as a squire, then dies.
8. If Trahearne left the Grove, he has returned by now.
9. Malomedies is returned to the Grove.
10. Earliest point at which Caithe and Faolain return to the Grove.
11. Serimon has gained enough life experience to decide he wants to be a mender and begins greeting other newly awakened secondborn, including Ceara.
12. Thirdborn awaken.
13. Latest point at which Caithe and Faolain return to the Grove.
14. Cadeyrn decides to reject Ventari's teachings.
15. Events of The Newly Awakened occur, with no indication of thirdborn being around yet (whoops, plot hole).

This seems to be the best way of ordering known events with the fewest lore discrepancies. A lot of major events are squeezed into the short period between Cadeyrn awakening and the events of The Newly Awakened; it's not clear just how short this period is, though. (Serimon suggests a minimum, since it seems like he would have needed at least a few days to acclimatize to Tyria himself before helping newborns do the same.)

I'm not necessarily suggesting we add this timeline to the article, but it may be helpful in figuring out seeming contradictions in the lore. —Idris 03:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Alright, first, cool timeline, but it's off on several points. Riannoc met Waine and was dead BEFORE the events of The Newly Awakened. (Malomedies: "We went so long without losing one of our own, but first Riannoc and now three of our newly awakened have been killed already. This is unacceptable.")

As regards Serimon, The Newly Awakened is specifically about the Firstborn trying to decide what to do about all these Secondborn - and more and more Secondborn have been waking up for months at that point. (Dagonet: "It's been several months now since the first new sprouts began to appear. They're awakening at an increasingly steady pace.") I am of the opinion that Serimon was among the first Secondborn, but that gives him months, maximum, as Ceara is in The Newly Awakened, as well.

Malomedies also meets the asura prior to The Newly Awakened. (Trahearne: ""Asura, I'd guess. Malomedies had an...encounter with them not long ago. He was lucky to survive.")

Also, how did you figure out the order of sylvari awakening beyond Trahearne? I'd have gone with the knowledge that, except Trahearne, the Luminaries are each the first of their Cycle, so I don't know why you'd put Wynne in there.

In Sharpened Thorns, Trahearne tells the player that he advised Riannoc against taking the fight to Mazdak. (Trahearne: "Ah, Riannoc. I warned you—told you not to go alone.") This indicates he must have been at the Grove at some point near the time when Riannoc left; your timeline has him absent for the whole time.

In consulting Dream and Nightmare, it says (in the first story-type block of text) that all twelve sylvari were there when Cadeyrn awakened; of course, this makes a plothole in the fact that Riannoc was dead by this time, according to The Newly Awakened, but I'd rather trust the more recent storyline episode than the article that was released even before the game came out, if I remember correctly. I also remember reading somewhere that Anet originally decided that the Secondborn awakened like seven years after the Firstborn, but they changed that when they started doing things with Scarlet for Season 1, so the fact that there are going to be discrepancies is inevitable - and they are likely to come from older bits of lore.

The Cycle of Night story-portion in Dream and Nightmare also has Cadeyrn on a krait-killing adventure with Niamh and two younger sylvari, Thirdborn or younger. It's probably not important to overall sylvari lore and timeline, but it does hint that Cadeyrn was just beginning to get fed up with the Nightmare Court - although his 'secret meetings' in The Newly Awakened contrast that. You can also compare the other bits about Cadeyrn.

Of course, the most recent resource... Caithe's Requiem: But she [Faolain] escaped me. In the Nightmare Court, she found a community of sylvari[...] But that [Ventari's Tablet] was all a lie, too. When Wynne revealed the truth of the sylvari to me—that we were created only to serve Mordremoth—I felt hollowed out all over again. This means that the Nightmare Court were founded and Faolain joined them before The Mystery Cave. Now, this - as far as I can tell - violates all the other sources we have. This could be because Anet changed their minds, or because the new writers didn't know the lore (and didn't take the time to investigate). But it does indicate that the current minds of ArenaNet place Faolain joining the Nightmare Court prior to Wynne telling Caithe the secret - and of course, this could just mean that Faolain was only pretending not to be a member during the prior memory seeds. But that's all conjecture. (Why does Anet make this so hard? /sad)

So this means that some exciting stuff DID happen - the sylvari didn't have a boring first two years, yay!

Also, although this is just personal guessing and opinion on my part, Trahearne did not say anything in The Newly Awakened about Orr. Trahearne going a whole mission without saying anything about Orr (except after its cleansing or during sylvari level 20 quests) is literally unheard of, so I'd wager a guess that he either hasn't gone there, or perhaps hasn't even realized what it is he is supposed to do for his Wyld Hunt.

Hope this helped... also what Discord is this? If such awesome lore discussions are going down, I want to join in! ~~TiffanySmith.8216 08:02, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for adding onto it. To help explain some things since Idris only pointed out the theorized conclusion and not reasoning so much, I'll cover your paragraphs one by one:

1. We know and denote that Riannoc died before The Newly Awakened. Riannoc's death is marked as #7, while The Newly Awakened is the last piece, marked #15.
2. True, the Serimon line should be earlier on, probably. We're not rightly sure where it would lie inbetween #3 (Cadeyrn wakes) and #12 (hypothetical Thirdborn). As to The Newly Awakened being about Secondborn and not also Thirdborn, the reasoning to put Thirdborn before The Newly Awakened is the Dream and Nightmare blog post, specifically the story excerpt including the krait youngling, where Cadeyrn's narrative mentions "Two others of an even younger generation than Cadeyrn stood [...]". This means the Thirdborn were born before Cadeyrn got dismissed by the Pale Tree and began preaching new things, and we see him preaching said new things in The Newly Awakened. Perhaps at the time, there was no distiction between Secondborn and Thirdborn because there were no "Fourthborn" yet - it's possible that The Newly Awakened takes place while the Thirdborn are still being awakened.
3. Again, this is denoted (ergo, agreement). Melomedies meets the asura at #5, while Newly Awakened is #15.
4. We have confirmation that Wynne was the first of the Night cycle, just as Trahearne was first of the Firstborn (and of Dusk). Luminaries merely state they were "born on the first <cycle> the race saw", not that they were first of their cycle. This means Malomedies and Kahedins were at best second of their cycle. We do not know where the other Firstborn are placed among those - Caithe and Faolain could have been born second or last of Night/Dusk, for all we know.
5. Hmmm, not necessarily. The two could have met up outside of the Grove. Also, the timeline states "If Trahearne left the grove, he's returned by now" for #8. We know that Trahearne had traveled quite a lot too, but we do not know when he left. We only know that he was in the Grove at two specific points: when Malomedies was returned, and during The Newly Awakened. Beyond that, we know he's traveled quite a bit like Caithe had.
6. Your assessment here is working on the (false) assumption that The Newly Awakened is working on when the Secondborn were being born. We know this isn't the case, as the Secondborn have been around long enough for all but the very last story excerpt in Dream and Nightmare to occur. All twelve were in the Grove when Cadeyrn awoke, but some - including Riannoc, Caithe, and Faolain - left before Malomedies returned, and Caithe had returned later to give Cadeyrn bade advice in the form of "you're either Firstborn or you're sylvari" - all three events are known to occur before The Newly Awakened. The fact all 12 being around for Cadeyrn's awakening is not a plot hole. As for when Secondborn were awakened - originally it was "5-6 years after the Firstborn" which got changed to 2 years later (which makes a lot more sense given all the other details - like how the sylvari could remain secretive for 5 years).
7. The Nightmare Court didn't exist during that excerpt - that was before Cadeyrn formed the court, when he was slowly being fed up with Ventari's teachings. The breaking point that led to the Nightmare Court's creation was Caithe's words, which led him to create the gatherings and the "Shadowy" allies seen during Season 2's flashbacks. Said "Shadowy" allies were the proto-Nightmare Court, before they had a name.
8. I both agree and disagree with your assessment on Requiem. The Requiem story is not exactly told in chronological order - none of them are. The following line you didn't quote, before mentioning Wynne - "My freedom lay in staying behind when she left." - Faolain "left Caithe" after killing Wynne, as we are told in The Mystery Cave. But on the flip side - the "agree" part - the Nightmare Court were already forming, the meetings already beginning, during The Newly Awakened. Faolain had indeed found that "sylvari community" she longed for before Wynne's reveal, but they weren't called the Nightmare Court just quite yet.
9. Not sure what you mean by them not having a boring first two years, given the fact that it is literally impossible for Cadeyrn to form the Nightmare Court before Cadeyrn awoke, which you seem to think was shortly before The Newly Awakened? Anyways...
10. It's possible, but it's also the case that Orr and Wyld Hunts weren't relevant to the discussions at hand. Though they seeded the apparent retcon of Caithe's Wyld Hunt not being about Zhaitan (or they treated it as such, despite the personal story).
11. They occur occasionally. Konig (talk) 08:52, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

My comment about not having a boring first two years was more about Riannoc, Waine, and Malomedies than the Nightmare Court. I fully agree that the Nightmare Court were formed after the events in the memory seeds. Most of my post was pointing out points of lore and quotations. Like I said, a lot of it has discrepancies. I generally trust The Newly Awakened over Dream and Nightmare (and even the Requiem, although I do believe that it was chronological within itself). According to that, Riannoc died before the Secondborn. Malomedies seemed to have encountered the asura more recently - it seemed to me it was after Cadeyrn awoke but before many other of the Secondborn had. Also remember that Serimon was awakened before Ceara, so Ceara's awakening limits that timeframe a bit.

I also left out a bit of my quote above, from Dagonet: "It's been several months now since the first new sprouts began to appear. They're awakening at an increasingly steady pace. If it doesn't stop soon...'" then the player (Caithe) finishes his sentence for him with "we'll be overrun." The Secondborn awakening was actively going on at the time of The Newly Awakened. Then the events of the other memory seeds happened, Caithe and Faolain disconnected. It is a point of lore, although I don't recall the source, that Cadeyrn led the Nightmare Court for a while before Faolain took over - but given Faolain's favorable view toward them, I get the feeling they were operating in secret for a while, and that perhaps Faolain joined in after The Mystery Cave. Just all my two cents! ~~TiffanySmith.8216 21:27, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

There are definitely a lot of discrepancies when it comes to early sylvari lore, and I don't think there's any way to avoid plot holes; the timeline I posted above is, in my opinion, just the version with the fewest holes while remaining true to all of our sources. Albeit, it does have a plot hole, and a huge one at that. :/

My inclination to trust all of our sources (though I do agree that in-game sources carry more weight than pre-release blog posts) is why I'm not swayed by your argument that the first two years of sylvari existence wasn't boring. Riannoc can't die until he meets Waine. He can't meet Waine until Malomedies has made first contact with the asura. Malomedies can't meet the asura until he witnesses Cadeyrn's birth. And Cadeyrn can't be born until the firstborn have been around for two years. But even if we disregard Dream and Nightmare entirely, that only frees up the timing of Malomedies' meeting with the asura -- and as you say, the mission heavily implies it happened close to the awakening of the secondborn. —Idris 21:56, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

It's worth noting that Dagonet doesn't call the new sprouts Secondborn outright, but even if he did it is entirely possible that they were Thirdborn, but they weren't yet given a distinction because the Thirdborn were still being awakened and there were no "Fourthborn" yet, as I suggested above. This combined with the order above, should solve all (or the biggest) plotholes. Alternatively, we could take the blog's line to be referring to "much younger Secondborn", which would then move line 12 to the end. Konig (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Except that there's this whole thing between Wynne and the others about calling them Secondborn as oppose to 'Newly Awakened.' Trahearne - and others - specifically called them Secondborn. I think the part in Dream and Nightmare with the 'even younger' sylvari refers to younger Secondborn. (And it stands to reason that Cadeyrn would want to put SOME distinction between them and himself, since he was the first of his generation. He was grasping at straws for how he was special when he spoke to the Pale Tree later on, as compared to his earlier pride about being first.) But yes, I think moving the awakening of the Thirdborn to the end would make more sense, and the rest of the timeline works (with perhaps more specifics like when Serimon was awakened - and it solves the plothole that no Thirdborn were mentioned in The Newly Awakened. However, there is still the issue of Riannoc... I don't know why I'm so certain he died before the Secondborn came along, but unless somebody can locate a source for that we should go with the line in Dream and Nightmare about all twelve being present for Cadeyrn's awakening. As for all the comments about Trahearne, Caithe, Faolain, Wynne and Riannoc leaving the Grove, I'm curious how you managed to get things so specific, but other than that I have no comment. Same goes for how you know when Riannoc died relative to Malomedies' experience with the asura. Also, Perhaps we could add in the timeline something about 'earliest point Faolain became Grand Duchess of the Nightmare Court,' but other than that I think everything fits. ~~TiffanySmith.8216 05:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

There's two takes I could see with that line about "a younger generation" and Wynne and the rest calling them all Secondborn, both of which I mentioned above. It's just which view you adhere to really.

Riannoc couldn't have died before the Secondborn were a thing because of Dream and Nightmare, Melomedies was taken and returned before Riannoc died and before Cadeyrn was born. As to the Firstborn who traveled - we list that because they're the Firstborn who traveled in the earlier years (Aife should be included since she also traveled a bit). As to Faolain becoming Grand Duchess - that'd be last in the list, so I don't see a point in including that in the timeline meant to denote "early sylvari timeline". Konig (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Yeah, the idea that Cadeyrn was grasping at straws thinking of fellow secondborn as "younger generations" does make a lot of sense, and it ties things up nicely. We're veering into speculative territory there, though. Regarding various sylvari leaving the Grove: we know that Caithe, Faolain, Riannoc and Trahearne left the Grove at some point, and we also know from Dream and Nightmare that they were present in the Grove at various times (for example, Trahearne was there when Malomedies was returned by the asura, but Caithe and Faolain weren't). That's why we've got lines like "earliest possible time so-and-so left the Grove". The timing of Riannoc's death is just a logical consequence of two known facts: Malomedies was the first sylvari to meet another race, and Riannoc had met a human before dying. Therefore, Riannoc's death must come after Malomedies' meeting with the asura. —Idris 06:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Lol I just found this dev comment: "Cadeyrn’s fall from grace happens over the course of a few years, not all at once; the events are separated in time. There is a total passage of about five years from the beginning to the end of the story." This can probably be safely regarded as non-canon at this point, since The Newly Awakened confirms Cadeyrn had rejected Ventari the same year he was born, but I thought you'd find it amusing. :p —Idris 06:07, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Firstborn Order of Awakening

The biggest question we have about the order of awakening for the Firstborn is whether they were born over the course of one day (all the Dusk blooms at once, then all the Night blooms) or three days (one sylvari per cycle). The facts we have to work with are these: Trahearne, at Dusk, was the first sylvari. The Luminaries followed, with all but Kahedins of Dusk being the first of their Cycle. We also know that Caithe and Faolain were born almost at the same time as each other, and yet Faolain is Dusk and Caithe is Night. Now, this factoid about Faolain and Caithe means that the second possibility on order of awakening (all the Night blooms at once, followed by the Dusk blooms, and so on) is impossible. Even if Faolain were the last of the Dusk blooms and Caithe the first of the Night ones, that would make Caithe a luminary, which she isn't. So instead, we have an order which goes as follows:

1 - Dusk, Trahearne

2 - Night, Malomedies

3 - Dawn, Aife

4 - Noon, Niamh

5 - Dusk, Kahedins

6 - Night, Wynne (we can know this because this is the last unoccupied Night space)

7 - Dawn, unknown

8 - Noon, unknown

9 - Dusk, Faolain

10 - Night, Caithe

11 - Dawn, unknown

12 - Noon, unknown

This leaves out Dagonet and Riannoc, since there are two open Dawn and Noon spaces (and Riannoc's Cycle being Noon is conjecture anyway), because of the two unknown Firstborn. These two could come on the second day, before Riannoc and Dagonet, or on the third day, or mixed-up, but I tend to place the two unknowns as the literal last of the Firstborn (Dawn and Noon of the third day) and put Riannoc and Dagonet on the second day.

Anyway. I thought I'd share this because it seems like the most up-to-date chart of the order of awakening we have. I feel like I can't have been the first to come up with this in nearly nine years, so is there any big contradiction I've overlooked? Thanks in advance. ~~TiffanySmith.8216 05:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Luminary doesn't mean the sylvari was born first, as said by Angel McCoy, unless I missed something ingame, so the order of awakening of them is just a speculation. + it was confirmed Wynne was the first of the Night cycle. ~Sime 19:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)