Talk:Snow Leopard (Spirit of the Wild)

Another spirit

Great, another spirit. Don't they have enough already? Cress Arvein 23:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If you think seven spirits is a lot, then you haven't seen the Canthan Celestials, which seem to have, what, 14? The twelve "Chinese references" that have and will appear during the Canthan New Year (we've seen Pig, Rat, and Ox - Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Sheep, Monkey, Rooster, and Dog are left) and the Turtle and Phoenix (this is assuming that Kirin=Horse). Seven (Spirits of the Wild) and Six (Human Gods) are not that many to be honest. -- Konig/talk 00:58, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Wait, seven ? I thought the Norns had Bear, Wolf, Raven and Snow Leopard. Isn't that four ? What are the other three ? 213.166.213.254 13:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

In a way, you're right, but in an other way, not. In gw:en, the norn did have more spirits, owl, worm and so on. Why anet took away those and instead gave them the snow leopard spirit is atm unknown (as far as i know) --Talk 13:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

wurm, ox and owl as we see here along with leopard 86.7.165.144 13:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they are still there, as lesser spirit.(don't they say the 4 are totems?)--Sierra 14:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I imagine it's because "wurm" and "ox" aren't exactly fighting spirits-- their forms might look cool, but they wouldn't really seem as strong as the others. I mean statwise they may be, but honestly; worm vs raven... who do you think would win? ;) As for the idea of too many deities, you NEED to study greek and roman mythology xD or better yet, study the religions where every single family has their own unique god or goddess, THEN you'll have a lot. --Amannelle 12:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

We don't know which animals are fighters or not. Raven certainly doesn't seem like a fighter. I would bet ox and wurm are more fighters than owl and raven. (i.e., everything Amannelle just said is speculation). Since Sierra's question, we've learned that they are indeed still around, but they didn't help with the norn exodus to the south, thus did not become one of the main four spirits. -- Konig/talk 20:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

All good points -- I really would've preferred Ox over Snow Leopard, but on the other hand, it would just be too similar to Bear in terms of gameplay. All four useable spirits present distinct attributes: bear being strength and power, raven being tricky, wolf being deadly, and leopard being (I suppose) dextrous. Ox would have just been another "powerful," ie, tank.216.185.250.92 22:15, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The "big four" only represent the biography option - there's still an Ox spirit out there, it's just a minor spirit. -- Konig/talk 00:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

So what does this guy represent

just wondering if the raven spirit represents trickery, the bear represents strength and so on what does this guy represent?--58.166.146.211 06:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Currently unknown. -- Konig/talk 07:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Probably speed Reaper of Scythes** 14:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Agility and Stamina= Snow Leopard

Strength and Power= Bear

Trickery and Something= Raven

Accuracy and Survivalness= Wolf

At least thats what i think.--Neil2250 , The Zoologist 15:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hehe "survivalness" & "and something" xD oh Neil you're fun. :D yeah, I think those will be the basic ideas, but remember that although the FORMS may have those skills, all norn, regardless of totem, are able to transform into all 4 forms. ^_^ --Amannelle 17:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Raven represents trickery, cunningness, intelligence as a whole, and foresight. Wolf represents the bloodthirst of battle and prowl-ness in hunting (tracking). Bear represents strength, power, and protection. The others are unknown. I doubt that they have spirits representing things like speed and "survivalness." @Amannelle - who said there's only four forms? ;) -- Konig/talk 20:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was stated earlier that those 4 were the available forms... o_o --Amannelle 20:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It was said that those are available, but I have yet to see something that says those are the only forms. Which is what I meant. We have no clue what the racial skills are, except for "Prayer to Kormir." -- Konig/talk 03:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Hehe you mean "prayer to Kormyr"? ;) ok, I may have been mistaken. ^_^ I just remember they were saying how if you choose 1 totem, you can still transform into "the other 3 forms", but maybe I was just taking that out of context. ^^; --Amannelle 11:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't you see it!? It's clear that this spirit will only be available for Mac-users (snow leopard) - and he represent the virus-free side of the Norn... or NOT XD, no i'll go for camouflage,agility,speed,...-Sierra Echo-94.226.51.192 16:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Rezzing a dead thread here

-Raven: Cunning

-Wolf: Camaraderie

-Bear: Strength

-Snow Leopard: Stealth

Technically, it's kind of hard to define animals with a specific overarching attribute, as most animals are pretty synonymous in how they behave in the wild, boiling down to "predator" or "prey". Any specific attributes associated with animals are just how a person decides. Ultimately, Raven would reflect magic use, harking to notions of magical practitioners being wise or clever people; Wolf would represent working in a group, as wolves are pack animals, as despite common misconceptions, a "lone wolf" is actually a lethargic and susceptible wolf who seeks to establish or find a new pack, not some epic lone force (that would be a bear); Bear would represent strength in its various attributes, whether physical, mental or emotional; Snow Leopard is iffy to me, because it feels like a desperate attempt at keeping the "Great Spirits" at four but without actually thinking how it would work, as the other three animals represent taxonomic families while the snow leopard is a specific species, and the main quality of this animal is stealth hunting. Ravens sometimes hunt, but generally rely on carrion, wolves attack calves or weak members of herd animals as a group as they lack the individual strength to fell necessary prey, and bears will eat just about anything that moves if the mood strikes it (they subsist on salmon, berries, nuts, they'll even crack open clams, oysters and crabs, they'll eat the remains of beached whales, and have been known to single-handedly kill full grown deer, elk and moose), so the only defining attribute of the snow leopard is stealth and subterfuge, since none of the other three animals would rely on stealth to hunt.

@Konig - All animals track to some degree or another, but wolves actually have a worse sense of smell than dogs, while bears have a far greater sense of smell than even bloodhounds. Wolves rely more on sight and sound; part of being a pack animal is that you actually don't spend much time tracking prey over long distances, you work as a group to overpower a weak enough target; wolves move with whichever herd animal they live nearby, whether deer, elk or bison, because they need to act quick and can't trail a scent after a certain distance. Wolves representing "bloodthirst" is hardly a unique attribute to them; wolves aren't very savage animals compared to other predators, they're more inclined to flee from anything they think they can't take on and mostly reserve killing when needed for food, while other predators are more inclined to kill over arbitrary reasons like territory or annoyance.

Given Norn are described as living for the Great Hunt, those would be the four most important attributes in hunting; you need to be more clever than your prey, you'll often have to rely on the help of others, you need the physical prowess to pull off a hunt, and you'll need to initiate a hunt without your prey being aware of your presence and intentions. Einbjorn (talk) 23:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Source?

Any source for the Snow Lynx renameing?--AdventurerPotatoe 16:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The Snow Lynx was renamed to Snow Lopard. As stated by Ree in an interview with GW2Guru. Misread your post as "remaining" - the link is here. -- Konig/talk 23:58, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks.--AdventurerPotatoe 11:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Not pleasing to the eye

I am just going to go on record and say that 2 navs of different length should either not be on the same page or be in order from top to bottom according to increasing size. Also the 2 colours look horrible on the same page. Venom20 19:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree that page looks ugly as sin. We need to find a way not to do that. Currently I can't think of a solution but we need to start talking about how to sort it out soon. --RaGingIMP 19:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I reduced the width of the professions nav a bit. Does that look any better? pling 19:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Well the word better just makes it sound fantastic. I would say that it is indeed less displeasing ;). If I had to choose between this any the past formats, this wins hands down. Venom20 20:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if its possible to have them side by side, that could go some way to helping.--RaGingIMP 20:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The first one is unnecessary with the new information. Previously it was done because it was thought to be part of character creation, we now know those are either removed or part of the biography - so it is now incomplete and inaccurate. I say delete the first one and keep the religions template. -- Konig/talk 22:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

She

Should be noted that like the bear spirit, this is a female spirit? It's called "she" on one of the audios from the recent blog entry but called "he" on this page. I'm editing it. Lokheit 22:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Weren't they all called "she" in the original game? --'Mai Yi' talk 23:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

No. Wolf and Raven were referred to as males. Only Bear was a she in Eye of the North. -- Konig/talk 00:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Must have been thinking of Bear then. --'Mai Yi' talk 00:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Snow Leopard Shaman

Should it be mentioned that we have an image of a male Snow Leopard shaman? :) It is identical to Raven and Bear in style, perfectly identical to Bear in that it too is adorned in claws and teeth, it seems. Also, it's shown RIGHT next to the Bear Shaman. :)I doubt it's a coincidence. 98.23.52.110 19:56, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

MAybe not coincidence, but it's still speculation. Until we get information that directly states that that armor render in fact is a Snow Leopard Shaman, I wouldn't put the picture up as one.--Tuomir 20:09, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Norn spirits are not deities

If I knew how to rephrase it I'd remove the word "deity" somebody put on the norn spirt pages. The norn do not worship the spirits the way humans do the "gods". Ramei Arashi 05:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

"Gods" and "deities" are not the same. To put it simply: all gods are deities but not all deities are gods. Also, this, one of the descriptions being: "divine character or nature". The Spirits of the Wild are, in fact, deities, but they are not worshiped - they are revered. And they are not gods, but on par to them (according to how norn view the Spirits of the Wild and the Six Gods according to an interview with Jeff Grubb). -- Konig/talk 05:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm assuming Norn spirits in some way are inspired by Native American spirits. It makes the most sense to me. I haven't read as much GW lore as I make it seem, but I'm sure the two are similar enough that one could Google info on NA animal spirits, assume the same or similar is true of the Norn animal spirits and not be far from the truth. To define one, look to the other? Does that make enough sense to everyone? Teddy Dan, yo. 05:41, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

There's more than just the Native Americans who revered the spirits of animals. And the norn revere more than the spirits of animals - they also have the non-sentient spirits of things like fire, darkness, mountains, and the seasons. We also don't know the origin of the spirits, but they don't seem to be like the Native American's animal totems, from what I know of the latter. -- Konig/talk 07:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay. I guess I just saw a spirit of something that wasn't there. (obvious pun intended) Teddy Dan, yo. 08:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Would this[1] be worth considering? Of the four primaries, Bear, Raven and Wolf are listed. There is no Snow Leopard, but there is Mountain Lion/Cougar. Eagle and Owl are also mentioned, but I believe "Wurm" and "Dolyak" are limited to the fantasy genre. There is no mention of Wolverine on the site to which I linked, but that site may not list them all. Raven is noted to loosely represent trickery on both sites (mimicking the calls of other animals, as noted on the site I linked to) as well as death(/the vast void of darkness/unconsciousness, implicative of death). However, connections between the other spirits would likely be easily refutable. So, I'll leave it to vote. Just putting the info out there. Teddy Dan, yo. 09:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The qualities of Raven to the norn are more tied with how the norse viewed ravens - as beings of wisdom and cunning (which would include outsmarting enemies, thus trickery). -- Konig/talk 21:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay. What does Norse mythology/culture say about whether animal spirits are deities? Teddy Dan, yo. 00:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Nothing, as far as I'm aware. Their gods were very humanoid (e.g., looked just like humans for the most part, much like Greek gods). But I hardly see how that matters since norn are not norse, just have inspiration from them (which doesn't mean everything will be explicit to the inspiration). -- Konig/talk 02:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, if something is inspired by something else, that something else may be a relevant research tool to identify the former. A=/=B, but it may be similar enough to discuss. Teddy Dan, yo. 02:45, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Konig, the very first line on that definition link you provide contradicts you, "a god or goddess." And according wiki page on deity its from latin for god and goddess. The norn do not consider the spirits to be gods and goddesses, though apparently they do consider the humans gods and goddesses to be spirits. Norn spirits are not deities. Ramei Arashi 14:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

1. a god or goddess.
2. divine character or nature, especially that of the Supreme Being; divinity.
3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.
4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.
5. the Deity, God; Supreme Being.

Try again, Konig is correct. - Infinite - talk 14:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

No Konig is not correct. The norn spirits are not gods, which is what deity means. The norn do not worship the spirits. Arenanet never calls the spirits deities. Ramei Arashi 06:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Deity doesn't solely mean "god" or "goddess" - take a look at number 2 of what Infinite listed. Divine creature or nature. Also, take a look at an interview with Jeff Grubb: "The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods” as well. Norn would disagree. And describe the human gods as being “Spirits of Action” of the humans – Balthazar is obviously War, and should be spoken of as such. Kormir is Knowledge, and calling her Kormir is a quaint human thing." [2]. The Spirits of the Wild and the Six Human Gods are on par. While not called gods by norn, they are called such by humans, and, again, are on par to each other. They are also "divine characters" -- Konig/talk 07:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Norn spirits are not deities (redux)

Rezzing a dead thread here; It comes down to a matter of wordplay, interpretation and correlations with real world belief systems and linguistics. "Deity" comes from Latin "deitas" and is synonymous with "god"; it has a range of interpretations when you consider that the Romans had various "tiers" of deities/gods, from the larger gods derived from Greek and Etruscan myths, down to personal household deities/gods. The Romans were notable in that they didn't actually worship the gods themselves, but rewrote Greek and Etruscan mythology to befit their obsession with deifying heroes of the past, often claiming that war heroes were demigods, because Romans were more interested in venerating and worshiping humans associated with great deeds than they actually cared about the gods themselves; the gods could be seen as being to the Romans just tools to add greatness to the legacy of heroic figures; most people just assume that the Romans only renamed Greek gods, but still treated them the same, but while the Greeks actually worshiped their gods, the Romans - as said - didn't.

"God" comes from Old English, which in turn takes from the Old Norse "gud", which is synonymous with "deity". A key thing about Old Norse beliefs is that it wasn't just the Aesir and Vanir who were gods, but also jotnar (giants), alfar (elves) and dvergar (dwarves), as the ancient Scandinavians (or Old Norse) perceived these as different tribes of gods, even though almost all modern fantasy writers like to portray giants, elves and dwarves as magical but mortal beings.

Thus we run into a snag; fantasy game writers aren't concerned with the minutia of real world history, only with the zeitgeist (modern perceptions). They aren't going to fabricate the story and lore around actual beliefs or even the etymology of words, they're going to mold their stories around contemporary perceptions of things, no matter how inaccurate or misconstrued they've become to the average person. ANet uses "god" in reference to the human-related divine entities, not in how the word accurately translates. Thus, within Guild Wars lore, other divine beings might fit the definition of a god in how the word would be used in the real world, but within the context of the game's simplified and streamlined lore, the word might only be used for this specific group or species of divine beings. One could say that, given what we've seen of the human gods rendered within the story, they are virtually no different from beings like Elder Dragons and the Spirits, as they all seem to occupy a similar tier of power and influence. The gods are fallible in various ways, and one who isn't originally a god might become one; Grenth was a demigod who achieved full god status, and Kormir was entirely mortal who was empowered by the divine remains of Abaddon, thereby making the nature of a "god" within GW context a bit iffy.

The Norns' Spirits of the Wild emulate more animist belief systems - animism involves personifying natural things into a sentient being, whether one personifies a natural force or animal - in that each type of animal is interpreted as belonging to a sentient divine entity, which within GW lore are called "spirits"; naturally the word "spirit" has a variety of interpretations, but we can assume at the very least that the context here is to distinguish them from the humans' gods. One notable difference is that the spirits seem more intrinsically connected to the world of Tyria, as they emphasize to the norn not to despoil the land. The gods, meanwhile, are noted as being foreign to Tyria, as are humans, and that they even encouraged humanity to do with the world what they wanted; despoiling the land for resources and even conquering the indigenous races. Nevertheless, so far we know that gods, elder dragons and spirits of the wild are all fallible, even the point of being able to die. They're just marginally different in select ways that distinguish them as having specific identities. Going with GW lore, "god" is effectively a divine human, "spirits of the wild" are divine animals, and elder dragons are divine natural forces.

One interesting note is that of these three divine groups of beings, the Spirits of the Wild remain the most ethereal, while the gods and elder dragons are the most tangible. Einbjorn (talk) 23:26, 10 October 2019 (UTC)