User talk:Aquadrizzt/Mesmers

Meh smer

While I feel likelihood of the Mesmer returning is high, I personally hate speculating. If it does return, I would like to see what they do with it. Teddy Dan 21:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

A F K picks his nose

• Assassin: Evolved into Thief — ArenaNet made it quite clear this is not what they're going for. Correct in that the profession is not coming back, incorrect as you put completely made up reasoning as to why.
• Monk: Merged into Guardian — So? Guardians have next to nothing from Monks (skill names aside). They have Wards; yet the Elementalist is still with us. Why not Monks?
• Ritualist: Too campaign/location specific to return in initial release — And it had sex with Paragons and became the Guardian. While I'm unaware of ArenaNet stating what you did; it does fit.
• Dervish: Medium armored — Yeah... about 255 years ago. (Again, who puts a cloth wearer into melee? But still.)

I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong. I'm just nitpicking over minor details. 'cause I'm bored. A F K When Needed 22:00, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

"No dedicated healer professions." And I recall (from a second hand source unfortunately) that the ritualist was inable of coming back for that exact reason. And surely you can agree that the thief overlaps the assassin at least a small bit. But yeah, arguing over small details is pointless. Aqua (T|C) 00:37, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

sigh.

They've shown a willingness to totally rework professions. "No dedicated healer profession" - as well as secondary sources - are meaningless. A F K When Needed 01:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Assassin could theoretically make a return with Cantha, but definitely not before. "Lore parallels." This is very unlikely with the thief in place.
• Smiting prayers were mostly reworked into guardian skills and traits, iirc. Other than that, Divine Favor? Heavy condition removal is also not very uncommon. What exactly has a monk left to offer?
• Ritualists have a split history; there were Tyrian ritualists but they are often confused with the playable profession from Cantha. Just because they are *named* ritualists in Tyria, does not make them of the ritualist profession. Granted, WiK features actual ritualists, but it also featured the 3 other non-core professions. AFAIK, Tyria did not have dervishes/paragons before NF and likely no assassins (not sure here) prior to Factions.
• The Dervish is hands down a human profession. I have read the counterarguments and they are not all that unoriginal but I really doubt that any race (other than possibly sylvari) would call upon the powers of the human gods to aid them in battle. Mysticism aside, there's no scythe in GW2 (save cating animations) nor in its weapons concept art pieces. Contrary to the poleaxe/halberd/spear. Wind Prayers and Earth Prayers, how are they that much different from Air Magic and Earth Magic without influences of the gods?

<yada yada yada> - Infinite - talk 08:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

concept arts

Did people forget the GDC concepts? This concept art is the only remaining image not tied to any of the 7 other professions, clearly resembles a Mesmer (as all the others resemble their GDC slideshow images) - in both color and appearance - and is a canon image, not like the alchemist, etc. With your sections 1 and 2, along with Queen Jennah (and others) being Mesmers, practicing Mesmerism, this all just screams "Mesmer is 8th profession." Why are we pretending it's not, now?! Q-Q ~~ Kiomadoushi 06:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

It hasn't been revealed/confirmed, yet. The Almighty Reveal knows all. I see this quote all over the place: "This wiki is a place to document facts. It is not a place to speculate." That stance has withstood criticism harsher than any celebrity roast or guest spot on Dr. Phil. Teddy Dan 06:09, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Hence this specific article is dedicated to Mesmer speculation and as it is situated in user space, feel free to burst out in speculation here. :P - Infinite - talk 13:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but I was answering the question "Why are we pretending it's not, now?!" I didn't intend to imply speculation wasn't welcome on this page. My apologies. Teddy Dan 20:39, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Well... "Mesmers" and "Mesmerism" in the world HAS been revealed/confirmed... just not as a profession... But we have a mesmer image too and that's a profession... using illusions (the little bird-like things) along with a fan (a mesmer focus item in GW1). it's even dressed in mesmer clothes (the purple stripe pattern)... and its all canon... At this point, we should be speculating how they'll DELIVER the Mesmer, not whether or not it WILL be. Anybody agree? 72.95.35.6 16:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC) edit sorry, it logged me out prior to post ~~ Kiomadoushi 16:30, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Paper fans were not limited to Mesmer attributes. See "It can have any spellcaster primary attribute." However, I do agree that speculating on the possibility of a playable Mesmer has utterly exhausted itself and the chances are high, as well as speculating on other aspects of the Mesmer would likely be more potentially constructive. Other aspects such as what sort of skills we could possibly expect and, thus, what sort of role it could possibly play both solo and in a group. Teddy Dan 19:47, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'll give you the "[...] any spellcaster primary attribute." That one is true, but I was mentioning more on the fact that a fan is a Mesmer item, not only for Mesmers. Fans are an illusionary weapon seen across multiple lores in movies, books, and games. Fan + Illusionary casting = Mesmer in GW lore. I really hope that a fan doesn't mean we're getting a second Necromancer or Elementalist. I'm also sure we aren't getting the Ritualist, as that's already been stripped apart and implemented in ways. No other profession besides those three (plus Mesmer) can manage what Fan magicks are known for. I'm open to Mesmer skill speculations, over on my speculations page and talk page. Tell me what you think! ~~ Kiomadoushi 22:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Charr

"Charr...simply don't believe the Six exist." More accurately, they acknowledge their existence, but take that existence as a challenge, or something. --ஸ Kyoshi 23:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

What does that have to do with the Mesmer? @ω@ ~~ Kiomadoushi 23:22, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Nothing really. --ஸ Kyoshi 23:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see. The facts against the Dervish. sorry about that xD ~~ Kiomadoushi 02:13, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Mechanics

So, let's just assume for the sake of avoiding argument that it is the Mesmer. What on earth is it going to do? No hexes in GW2, and energy has larger pools now. I'd guess they could keep mantras since they kept stances. Illusion magic sounds cool in books, looking like the enemy. But how would that look in a game. Sure computer AI can be made to be tricked, but players? I don't care if it just looks like an ally, there's no friendly fire so I'll toss some AoE on it if I think it's a trap. I would have guessed illusion floating weapons that attacked things, but then spirit weapons were relieved. Anyone else have some ideas? ~Ao Allusir 02:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

You could say a lot of the same things about the necromancer. Most of their main mechanics from GW1 were removed or changed drastically, and corpses are no longer exploitable, but Anet still managed to make an easily recognizable necromancer. Anywho... If I could imagine a unique mesmer ability, it'd either be illusions (the flaws of which you pointed out) or some energy or spell siphoning ability. Not sure how it'd work, but it sounds amazing. - 03:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

here's some...

• Blackout condition spells, disabling attacks (duh)
• Cloud-like AoEs that cause effects like blindness, possibly permanent while inside, and make players' screens turn black or dark grey, making it hard to actually see enemies/allies
• AoEs invisible or mostly-invisible to enemies (AI's ignore it exists until they're affected), causing dmg while inside
• Spells cast to cause conditions, including Burning or Deep Wound, that you wouldn't normally find on such spells (Illusion of Flame, Phantom Pain)
• Spell that creates doppelgangers with 1 hp or so, appearing as allies to caster, and using a limited pool of skills and set attributes

can't think of mechanic bar skills, but those all seem possible, and possibly plausible ~~ Kiomadoushi 03:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Maybe ground targeted skills that cause health degen and/or slow movement/attack. Possibly creating a clone/decoy of yourself to help confuse enemies/use as bait. --Moto Saxon 04:33, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

or perhaps some inspirational skills that buff allies. Like a skill that causes allies to gain energy with their next skill, instead of using it.

but that falls outside the boon/condition/effect thing, where it needs to either exist physically (like a DoT AoE), or be one of those... the hex/enchantment system was removed, so they couldn't exactly make buffs like that ~~ Kiomadoushi 05:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

the buffs could be ground targeted spells, shouts, maybe a horn skill. Maybe a guardian type bubble that freezes enemies in place for 2-3 seconds with a 60 sec recharge. Was also thinking that they might incorporate spirit weapons effects in the form of aoe ground buffs/shouts as a mrs specific ability. --Moto Saxon 16:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Kiomadoushi, don't forget the elementalist glyphs, that some of which give bonuses outside the boon list. Also, signets were one of the Mesmers signature things, and that I can see happining in GW2 as well. Then there are already Guardian symbols and wards, necromancer marks and wells... The list goes on. Mesmer could easily have similar skill mechanisms, just more illusionary. For example, one interesting spell would be a spell that mimicked the visuals and sounds of a random other AoE spell, but that didn't actually do anything. NPC's would use their normal AI to avoid the AoE, and hilarity would ensue. Tuomir 16:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

1.B - and why I disagree

The Apocrypha was a Dervish (on occasion), which is interesting in and of itself.

You appear to be arguing that the Dervish cannot return because some of the playable races lack faith in a specific pantheon. I don't believe this is true, based on certain Dervish enemies we have encountered thus far. Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh (summon) and other non-canon stuff ("and then the adventurers from Tyria summoned the Black Beast and bound it to their will...") notwithstanding.

Berserking Bison are unlikely to be developed enough to have faith in any deity. Unstable Golems are machines. If a Destroyer of Compassion has any faith at all (everything I know of them tells me they would, and indeed could, not) it must surely worship the Dragons; or perhaps just one of them. Then there are the usual bunch of random Djinn, Undead and White Mantle which stretch your suggestion, at least in my view. A F K When Needed 18:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Dervishes powers was based on Mysticism, which can come from, anywhere... I read 1.B, and I would also want to say to Aquadrizzt that Charr do believe that the Gods have powers and the Sylvari believes they exist, however, Charr do not worship anyone and Sylvari want proof, they have no reason to believe in something if there's no evidence. I could see Dervishes being merged with Monks in some future expansion if they add more Professions. A melee light or medium armor fighter who uses mysticism, spells and martial arts. That'd be cool. Though, I still think Mesmers will be the 8th profession. Where Dervishes went in lore is probably all humans. Human racials seem to be what could've been Dervish skills. --AdventurerPotatoe - 20:09, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The reason why Apocrypha and other apparently not dervish bosses/mobs are set to dervish profession in the game, is because the need of implementation of the game requires every NPC having a profession. This is completely unrelated to prove or deny the possibility of dervish in GW2 from this aspect.

Also, the speculation is based on the assumption that all the evidence provided from ANet is true, and accurate. It's possible (and always, as we've seen lots of the time) an ANet employee can conduct partially wrong (if not completely) information to the public according their mispresentation or simply lack of knowledge on a certain area of the game. And ANet can also reiterate things, even professions.

But the single only reason why I think the last profession will certainly be mesmer, without doubt, is that mesmer is the profession which distincts from Guild Wars and other MMOs. Mesmer is a symbol of Guild Wars franchise. Glastium | talk 22:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

@AFK: Pretty much exactly what Glastium said. Also, paragons are described in-game as "humanity's champions against malefic threats." There are plenty of non-human paragons, hell, there's even some "malefic" paragons (i.e. Margonites).

@AP: The sylvari don't believe the Six exist because they have no reason to believe they do; I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the sylvari have heard of the Six, but that they are yet to have witnessed any physical indication of them. Aqua (T|C) 23:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The mists? Arah? Hounds of Balthazar? Doubting the human gods is like doubting Gwen the goremonger. There's just as much proof that she existed as there is of that the human gods existed. Perhaps the gods have even more proof. Kormir was even a human once, theres even Asuran research on the gods as part of the eternal alchemy. You do remember the quests Kerrsh gave you? --AdventurerPotatoe - 00:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

@AP: "The gods of the humans have been notably distant these past two centuries, withdrawing into silence even as the world beneath them shattered. Although they still answer prayers, they do not intervene—even as Tyria crumbles and the human race calls out desperately for heroes to save them from their darkening struggle." The gods have withdrawn themselves, so the very young race of the Silvari simply can't have seen actual acts of the gods, unlike the humans who have passed down the knowledge of physical manifestations and such through the generations. The hounds of balthazar and similar things are probably just as much involved with the gods as an elementalist's fire spells are, and if not, they could be handwaved as such by other races. --El_Nazgir 09:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Theres no reason for Sylvari to doubt the gods anymore than there is to doubt the existence of Gwen. However, the powers they have can be doubted by SYlvari since the gods no longer intervene. So, as I've understood it and what my reasoning shows me is that Sylvari believe they exist, just not that they are gods. --AdventurerPotatoe - 10:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

@AP - Gwen died long before the first Sylari were born.

@Aqua - No, I don't accept that quote. It strikes me as being very much a description of playable Paragons than anything else.

@Glas - Almost everything you said was off-topic. Your second paragraph appears to debate the section after 1.B, and your final paragraph appears even more unrelated.

We're discussing Aqua's claim that Dervish cannot be in the release of Guild Wars 2 because only one playable race is likely to be able to play as Dervish due to established lore. Your talk of a technical limitation - on which, I do not doubt you - is neither here nor there.

You appear to be trying to use it as proof that (some or all?) enemies don't have professions in lore; and that it is only implemented that way for gameplay mechanics. Yet you have not substantiated this claim with a link to ArenaNet saying "most enemies don't have professions, that's just a limitation of our game engine".

The existence of the technical limitation is not important, neither is proof of same. You need to prove that enemies were given professions only because of that, and you have yet to do so. It's a rather extreme claim and I highly doubt it is accurate. In the absence of such proof, what's found in the game must be considered canon.

And in the game, Peacekeepers can assume the Form of a God (although it being Grenth may not be canon so much as quicker than creating an all new form model just for them). Also in the game are Margonite Paragons and Monks, White Mantle Monks and even Undead Monks, Dervish, and Paragons. A F K When Needed 05:47, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Gwen being dead is the point of my argument. She's history now, so are the gods, at least their physical form, which is comparable to Gwen, since she was physical. Are you telling me Sylvari won't believe in ANYTHING without proof? I believe Winston CHurchill existed, but I don't have proof of his existence. --AdventurerPotatoe - 11:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

You're talking to someone six months old about beings that have existed for thousands of years.

Think about it.

Many of them probably struggle to grasp the lifespan of Charr, Norn, etc. A F K When Needed 23:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

To me, it doesnt make it less believable. Lets just end the Sylvari vs. existance of the gods debate and see for ourselves when the game is released. --AdventurerPotatoe - 00:09, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

asdf

ritualist -> engineer -Auron 11:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. --AdventurerPotatoe - 11:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

The Ritualist has always had my vote. --The Holy Dragons 11:14, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Illusion

I was watching someone playing TF2 and it appears that the class of spies can effectively change appearance. They take other classes looks. Maybe an idea for some illusion skills ? Qral 02:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)