Talk:Table of elementalist combo skills
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Hey, I just wanted to say that I found this page very useful as a quick glance to see which weapons created which combo fields. It was enlightening to see at a glance that if you wanted multiple kinds of combo fields on an Elementalist, you'd better play Staffs.
That said, it's messy.
Yeah, it is. If you have any suggestions for how to clean its' look up, I l'd love it if you would implement them or tell me how to do so. 70.196.193.16 17:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- We already list combo skills for each type of field and finisher. If you need a specific field and specific finisher for a given combo effect, simply listing all the possible combo fields and finishers for a profession isn't too helpful. So if I want to make a more educational query, we can use dpl or SMW. So I can make an example by looking up all the Elementalist finisher skills, we can make a simple call like User:Relyk/Skill infobox effects. We can also work more SMW magic and output into a table: User:Relyk/Template:Skill table2 (You can include weapon type and combo type). This is only relevant to making pages, players will eventually have an extension to make these kinds of queries with some simple semantics. I could see it being useful to have pages that list each profession's fields and finishers so you can formulate strategies. But these types of pages are more educational use than for reference.--Relyk ~ talk > 20:44, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- What is the problem with having pages for reference? Especially one that provides information that could be vital when building a character, especially one with support in this instance. In fact, I'd argue that the table you generated should probably be provided in a Combo section on each professions page with a little better formatting, it is a little silly to have it on it's own.
- Oppose One of the few useful pages on this otherwise very vague wiki and poor format is no reason to delete. 50.101.153.9 15:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose I found this page rather useful, but honestly either every class should get one and this one be taken off the combo page as a special list, or on the weapon ability pages a column be made to allow quick reference of combo fields and finishers. This is exactly the kind of information people want to be able to reference quickly on a wiki like this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
I have to agree, this page is fairly useful. No need to remove it. I wouldn't oppose re-organizing and adding pages for the other classes, though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.250.106.123 (talk • contribs).
- Oppose This page has the info I was searching for on my quest to learn combining. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.21.206.161 (talk • contribs).
Forget deletion, this page is an exemplar in what a wiki should be: an elegant way to impart vital information in the most efficient way possible. It deserves to be a template for each classes combo page, because right now it is almost impossible to actually intuitively find combos for your class on this wiki. The best way to do it is either open each skill in all of your weapons at once, or check the element page to find class skills, neither an efficient way to allow players to set up combos for their own class, let alone finding out what they can do to help others. Would anyone mind if I actually go and make a table like this for each class, delete the bit about the elementalist being special for combos (Because he really isn't) and just creating a page called "Combos by weapon and class" and putting combo information into the basic descriptions for each weapon skill? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- I'm torn about how much utility this page provides, and how to make it better, if it's retained. Right now, it's a bit inconsistent, with one column for all fields, and four for the finishers. Also, I think that these pages might be better served by being automated, since fields and finishers might change, and these pages might not get updated quickly. So, to that end, would it be possible to see a table with columns: skill, slot (weapon, utility, etc), combo type (finisher/field), effect type (fire, dark, blast, projectile). That way, you can organize the data how you want to, while still keeping things together (I have a staff, what fields and finishers do I have? sort by slot). --JonTheMon 00:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- (edit)Btw, what do you mean by "putting combo information into the basic descriptions for each weapon skill"? --JonTheMon 00:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- When looking at "List of X skills" there is no mention of combo field or finisher creations in them, despite it being a vital aspect of some skills and their primary usage. As for layout, it could stand to be improved, but I think the one column for fields makes sense, as there are only four finishers but eight combo fields. And this is an MMO wiki. Any page's information at any given time. If there is a way to automate the page while retaining the design of the layout, that is a layout that instantly and easily can be scanned for the information a player is looking for as intuitively as possible, I am all for it. But the fact that the game changes isn't a good reason to go to serious extents to make the wiki timeless. Especially as what causes a combo field or finisher is a lot less likely to change than numbers on different abilities, drop rates, or where items can be obtained. As for the utility of this page? It frankly can't be denied. It is doing what a Wiki is intended to do. Provide easy to read, use, and find information. This is literally the only page on the wiki that allows one to see what weapons have what fields. It is a core game mechanic. The ability to easily figure out what combo fields and finishers you can set up with your classes basic weapon skills (and possibly utility skills if they get added) is going to be something people are looking for when they look up Combo on the wiki. By not having it, the wiki is undeniably weaker. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- While we are all regurgitating discussion and don't give a fuck about what I've said so far on this page, I'll just lead you to Category:Combo field skills and Category:Combo finisher skills until someone actually bothers to discuss the topic of creating tables for combo skills by profession, which is not going look like the ugly as shit table that doesn't match the rest of the wiki.--Relyk ~ talk > 02:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- When looking at "List of X skills" there is no mention of combo field or finisher creations in them, despite it being a vital aspect of some skills and their primary usage. As for layout, it could stand to be improved, but I think the one column for fields makes sense, as there are only four finishers but eight combo fields. And this is an MMO wiki. Any page's information at any given time. If there is a way to automate the page while retaining the design of the layout, that is a layout that instantly and easily can be scanned for the information a player is looking for as intuitively as possible, I am all for it. But the fact that the game changes isn't a good reason to go to serious extents to make the wiki timeless. Especially as what causes a combo field or finisher is a lot less likely to change than numbers on different abilities, drop rates, or where items can be obtained. As for the utility of this page? It frankly can't be denied. It is doing what a Wiki is intended to do. Provide easy to read, use, and find information. This is literally the only page on the wiki that allows one to see what weapons have what fields. It is a core game mechanic. The ability to easily figure out what combo fields and finishers you can set up with your classes basic weapon skills (and possibly utility skills if they get added) is going to be something people are looking for when they look up Combo on the wiki. By not having it, the wiki is undeniably weaker. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- My point was that page *Isn't useful* and that the table is an astoundingly good way to instantly convey what skills and weapons produce what fields and combos. I looked at that page. It is exactly what a page like this shouldn't be. Each skill is organized by field type which isn't as useful or immediately relevant as by class, does not actually relay if its a weapon skill or utility skill, and what weapon it's on, and is compiled like some of the worse parts of the wiki: A list of skills under a general category with very little information besides that it is in that category. Its the difference between leaving all your clothes on a pile on the ground and putting them in an ugly cabinet. Ultimately a wiki should impart good information first and be an artistic masterpiece second. Ultimately this table is helping people find out more information about the game better than those nested pages that require you to open and cross reference multiple tabs to get a build and are organized in a manner that goes against ease of use. If it is that ugly to you, it's a wiki, make a better version. Otherwise I think its worth exploring making a table like this one that rapidly imparts highly useful information and applying it to all classes rather than having a weird special case page for the elementalist that doesn't have the same visuals of other tables on the wiki. Unless I critically failed to understand you and you are saying you are ok with having a table like this so long as someone actually makes it and makes it in a matter that matches other tables. In which case, I remind you I offered to do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- No one said there wasn't going to be a table, just not this retarded table. You can stroll through User:Relyk/sandbox/combo for some example tables. My preferred sorting is by combo type then weapon. SMW allow sorting by any property usually, but you can't do that for this since it's using a template to output the table. The combo type is more important than the weapon providing the combo type. Could add a parameter for the curious to switch the two, but you will also be switching the columns to keep it readable. That kind of shit is for discussion about formatting than the organization of the tables.--Relyk ~ talk > 17:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The point I trying to make by opposing deletion is that your preferred method does not convey the most relevant information first, and that this page immediately conveys the relevant information people are looking for when they want to look up combos by class, looking for what combos they can make by holding what weapons. I understand tables are rare on the wiki, but they *are* used when they are the most efficient way to convey important information, and regarding combos the most important information someone needs regarding combos after "What does each combo do?" is "What combos can I do?" and the best way to do that is to show what weapons have what abilities in a way that with only a passing glance. Pages already exist to show a player what abilities belong to what finisher or field type. People are opposing deletion because this is one of two pages on the entire wiki that actually helps individual users to set up their own combos without having to dig through each element in a combo, open each skill to see which weapon its on, and basically have to make this exact table in their head. There needs to be a page almost identical like this for every class or the wiki is just downright incomplete. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- No one said there wasn't going to be a table, just not this retarded table. You can stroll through User:Relyk/sandbox/combo for some example tables. My preferred sorting is by combo type then weapon. SMW allow sorting by any property usually, but you can't do that for this since it's using a template to output the table. The combo type is more important than the weapon providing the combo type. Could add a parameter for the curious to switch the two, but you will also be switching the columns to keep it readable. That kind of shit is for discussion about formatting than the organization of the tables.--Relyk ~ talk > 17:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- My point was that page *Isn't useful* and that the table is an astoundingly good way to instantly convey what skills and weapons produce what fields and combos. I looked at that page. It is exactly what a page like this shouldn't be. Each skill is organized by field type which isn't as useful or immediately relevant as by class, does not actually relay if its a weapon skill or utility skill, and what weapon it's on, and is compiled like some of the worse parts of the wiki: A list of skills under a general category with very little information besides that it is in that category. Its the difference between leaving all your clothes on a pile on the ground and putting them in an ugly cabinet. Ultimately a wiki should impart good information first and be an artistic masterpiece second. Ultimately this table is helping people find out more information about the game better than those nested pages that require you to open and cross reference multiple tabs to get a build and are organized in a manner that goes against ease of use. If it is that ugly to you, it's a wiki, make a better version. Otherwise I think its worth exploring making a table like this one that rapidly imparts highly useful information and applying it to all classes rather than having a weird special case page for the elementalist that doesn't have the same visuals of other tables on the wiki. Unless I critically failed to understand you and you are saying you are ok with having a table like this so long as someone actually makes it and makes it in a matter that matches other tables. In which case, I remind you I offered to do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- Please realize that not everyone thinks like you do. Yes, combos are important, but they are far from the most important aspect of the game, and some people may not care about them at all. —Dr Ishmael
20:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Please realize that not everyone thinks like you do. Yes, combos are important, but they are far from the most important aspect of the game, and some people may not care about them at all. —Dr Ishmael
- Are you actually saying we shouldn't make a good page on combos because not everyone may find combos important? If they don't find combos important they arn't going to look them up. But as of right now this is the only way, save for opening some odd 20 tabs the average user is going to find out about the combos they can make, and even using the sorting function Relyk brought up your still floating around 8 for most classes. No, combos may not be the most important thing in the game, but they are critical to how the game plays and currently the wiki is atrocious in how it presents information on them. If you need to open that many tabs to find out basic information that can be very easily found on one if it were allowed to exist, then you have failed to properly format the wiki for it's intended purpose. At the end of the day, a wiki is meant to impart information efficiently, and combos in relation to the skills they are on are not in any way adequately presented outside of this page. Knowing what skills create what fields is useful information to have, but it in no way replaces the ability to see what you can actually do with certain weapons you have. I don't know what else I can say on this matter to convince anyone that a wiki's primary job should be to allow easy access to information, so I guess there isn't a lot of point in creating a bunch of highly relevant pages you are in essence asking every player who wants this information to make individually by opening a bunch of tabs and cross referencing it themselves if people are so adamant about not having it, but I really don't see the point of making this wiki weaker to avoid redundant references, which I remind you every single well designed wiki has. *Someone* should make pages like this, but I don't feel comfortable putting in the effort if this wiki is so hostile to basic ergonomics and basic concepts of conveyance of information by relevancy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.110.164.153 (talk • contribs).
- Good job putting words in Ish's mouth. The gist of what he's saying is: people have different priorities, so not everyone is going think that your idea is awesome and highly important and agree with you on how to go about it. If you read it, Ish even said "combos are important". To build a bit on his comments, we try to make meta-pages like these as there's a demonstrated need and ability to do it. So, we discuss what exactly is needed, talk about how best to go about it, and then make decisions based on that.
- Back to the original topic, have you glanced at the examples in my sandbox (linked above)? --JonTheMon 22:26, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- What I'm actually saying is that you don't need to be so hostile to people who don't share your priorities. You've made your stance quite clear, there's no need to bombard us with words anymore. (No, I didn't read any more than the first sentence, because I know the rest is just a rehash of everything you've said before.) —Dr Ishmael 22:26, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- What I'm actually saying is that you don't need to be so hostile to people who don't share your priorities. You've made your stance quite clear, there's no need to bombard us with words anymore. (No, I didn't read any more than the first sentence, because I know the rest is just a rehash of everything you've said before.) —Dr Ishmael
I found this page useful as i am an Elementalist just learning now about fields and finishers. Before i go off joining groups i would like to be adept and both creating fields with my staff and finishers with the sceptor dagger combo as well as other combinations that i have not yet explored. I do not think this page is redundant as I use both this page and the Combo page together to understand this aspect of gameplay. I ask you to keep this page on the wiki.
- I think as the table currently stands is ok, but ideally we could do with a way to abbreviate/shortcut the elementalist conjure weapon names (wide table = ugly) Chieftain Alex
21:11, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think we could link directly to the conjured weapons themselves (for example, Ice Bow, Conjured Flame, etc.) since they have the same skill information that the main "Conjure X" spell pages have. "Fiery Greatsword" and "Lightning Hammer" are still pretty long, though. Seeker of Whispers 23:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- My accidental revision shows what I was thinking of. I reckon if we only stick the conjure skills in there, then for example, frost bow would have the same amount of representation as flame axe, even though flame axe has 2 more combo skills. (perhaps I misunderstood your suggestion and you meant use the conjure icons as links instead of text? which is a worse idea xd ) Chieftain Alex 23:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, I wanted to simply replace the current link to the Conjure skill with a link to the weapon created by said spell - example: Frost Volley (Ice Bow) - since the weapons tend to have shorter page names than the Conjure spells. Your old version looks much more elegant though. Seeker of Whispers 23:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- My accidental revision shows what I was thinking of. I reckon if we only stick the conjure skills in there, then for example, frost bow would have the same amount of representation as flame axe, even though flame axe has 2 more combo skills. (perhaps I misunderstood your suggestion and you meant use the conjure icons as links instead of text? which is a worse idea xd ) Chieftain Alex
- I think we could link directly to the conjured weapons themselves (for example, Ice Bow, Conjured Flame, etc.) since they have the same skill information that the main "Conjure X" spell pages have. "Fiery Greatsword" and "Lightning Hammer" are still pretty long, though. Seeker of Whispers 23:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I created the table for the Necromancer yesterday, and the table for the Warrior this afternoon. I wasn't aware of this discussion (granted I'm new here so big surprise there). I find these tables to be very useful, in fact, I was looking for this information the other day and saw only tables for the Elementalist and the Mesmer, which is why I went ahead and started to create the remaining tables. I would love to keep working on them, but I don't want to spend the time if we plan getting rid of them. What are everyone's current thoughts? --FerrousWheel 23:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Relyk's magic tables won't be nearly as "quick-reference" as these currently are, by all means feel free to continue. Chieftain Alex 23:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Feedback 2018/04/26[edit]
Where does it show WHAT effect the combos cause? I see the field and finisher but can't find what the result is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 73.8.30.215 (talk) at 16:00, 26 April 2018 (UTC).
- The possible results for each field + finisher are listed on the combo page. G R E E N E R 16:04, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
