Talk:Living World Season 2

That's way too much information. Information on characters and organization should have 2-3 lines at most.--Relyk ~ talk < 19:13, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Sources?

Where is all this information coming from? I am fairly certain that nothing has been released for season 2, in fact, I don't think season two has been announced. 76.115.167.227 05:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

So far, everything that’s on this article is from season 1. It explains the setting, i.e. what has happened before (=season 1), and what characters are involved. No story is known, hence the empty section. poke | talk 16:28, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I think the article as it is now is highly speculative. I'm not saying the facts that are given are wrong, but I do think that the significance for those facts is not proven yet. For example, the remark made by Laranthir, seems to indicate that Trahearne and the pact will play a rol in Season 2. This remains to be seen. The things picked for the 'setting' is what makes its speculative. I would really recommend and petition to delete all but the awaking of mordremoth and death of scarlet for that segment.195.240.63.18 16:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Laranthir appeared in the ruins of Lion's Arch with a Pact airship, investigating Mordremoth's roar is grounds enough for the inclusion of a subsection for the Pact. There's actually nothing anywhere saying that Mordremoth is going to be a part of Season 2, but nobody is petitioning to remove that because of course it is. Same goes for the Pact.

The subjects chosen for inclusion in the "Setting" section were those whose plot threads were started, reminded to the players, or otherwise picked up during Battle for Lion's Arch: Aftermath or Festival of the Four Winds, two releases whose purposes were more or less entirely to wrap up S1 and hint towards S2. That, I think, is reasonable. –Santax (talk · contribs) 16:55, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with you Santax. You are speculating here instead of keeping to facts that are proven to be relevant. when editing a wiki it is important to have a scientifical approach and this is clearly a situation as reasoning to a hypthesis. Eventhough I agree the hypothesis is very likely to become proven, it is in my opinion better to wait for solid facts. So the part about Laranthir and other elements should really be avoided till the pact actually shows up in season 2. You are now guessing. an educated guess, but it is still a guess.195.240.63.18 17:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused with a few things on this page. Why is Rox's name "Whetstone" instead of "Pickheart"? And since when was she related to Rytlock? Also, do we know that the Inquest and Nightmare court have joined with the rebels as part of Season 2? Sure, they formed that Triad in Brisban, but that has been there since the game was released. 96.48.117.14 02:26, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I thought Rox's last name was always Whetstone. Where was it Pickheart? Vili 点 04:38, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Charr surnames are less about family than human or norn names, and feature their warband name and then an additional word or two to reflect their more ferocious or warlike nature. So although Rox is Rytlock's half-sister, the name 'Whetstone' actually comes from the fact that she was undergoing warband trials for and was a provisional member of the Stone Warband. Similarly, the name 'Pickheart' is the name she chose for herself as a part of the Pick warband, who all died at some point before we met Rox. In fact as a gladium, Rox hasn't even had a surname for most of the time that we've known her; she was introduced simply as 'Rox the Charr'. The story of how Rox lost her warband, Rox's Tale, is actually exemplary of how charr get their surnames.

Anyway, I went into excessive detail there, I think. Re: the Sinister Triad stuff, we don't know at all if the Inquest, Nightmare Court, and bandits have banded together (although it's likely), and the section wasn't meant to suggest that (although I can see how it would at the moment). It's simply a way of talking about the three factions, all of which we know will be involved in Season 2, without adding even more sections to the page. When that section is written up properly, it will be made clear that we don't know if they are actually currently allied (although we will probably know whether or not they are by then). –Santax (talk · contribs) 10:31, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

did season 2 start with the rebuild of LA?

just wondering, did season 2 officially start with the beginning of Lion's Arch rebuild since the [Festival of the Four Winds] update? --Nonchip (talk) 00:05, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The announcement that went up today seems to imply that the Festival of the Four Winds was not part of Season 2. Thus, the starting rebuild should not be, either. --Dav 12:31, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Yep: Season 2 begins July 1. We're still in intermission. —Dr Ishmael 13:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Season start/end, person summaries

→ moved from User_talk:Thrain

The "Setting" section is for...well, the setting. As in, describing the world as it stands at the beginning of Season 2, before anything has happened yet. It establishes key characters and organisations so that the rest of the article makes more sense to an unfamiliar reader. So it's actually harmful to update the setting section each release with updates on what each character is doing—story progression is what the "Story" section is for. Before Season 2 takes place, Gnashblade is lamenting the damage dealt to his business, and characters like Subassessor Prongg hint that the Consortium are looking to step into his shoes. That is where that plot thread stands at that point in the story, and that is what should be described as part of the setting. But when Festival of the Four Winds, the effective prologue to Season 2, comes around, it turns out that the situation has unexpectedly put Gnashblade in a stronger position than anticipated, and so that should be described as part of the story. And World Season 2&diff=prev&oldid=818051 if you read my edit fully, that is exactly what has been done. –Santax (talk · contribs) 16:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

As someone who plays the game, I can say that is more or less a correct summary of the events. So it's probably just an issue of formatting/layout being unintuitive. Vili 点 17:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Season 2 hasn't started yet (It starts with the update on July 1st), so anything currently in-game occurs BEFORE the season starts (and thus, isn't a part of it). Also, Subassessor Prongg's dialogue hasn't changed at all since the end of the tower of Nightmares - which means it has nothing to do with the economic changes brought with the destruction of LA. Linking them together is pure speculation. I had assumed that the setting would include everything up to the start of season 2, rather than everything up to some other arbitrary update. Thrain | contribs 17:49, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Season 2 doesn't "officially" begin until July 1st, in the same way that the Living World didn't officially begin until "Flame and Frost" (and the concept of seasons possibly didn't come until later still), but we still include The Lost Shores and Shadow of the Mad King on Living World Season 1: because if we didn't, we'd have nowhere to put them. For the purposes of the article, the story of season 2 is already tentatively underway. –Santax (talk · contribs) 17:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

There was no discussion on whether to include those releases in season 1. Of course we have other places to put them, there's the releases page or the Living World page. Season 1 can be considered starting with Flame and Frost with the recap trailer. The prior releases are part of the Living World, but I don't see why they need to be grouped in season 1.--Relyk ~ talk < 18:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

While it is true that Season 2 does not "officially" start until July 1st and a lot of things in the summary may be speculation. The previous and current release sets the stage for Season 2 we were told to pay attention to the small things for hints on what will be happening in season 2. So this current and previous releases are setting the stage for Season 2. In the case of a book there is often a prologue to a story at the current moment we are not in season 2 we are in the prologue to season 2. We are not in season 2 as that ended with scarlet's death. In the case of Evon Gnashblade he himself said that he is the top merchant in the city. That all said I think further discussion would be best suited elsewhere however. If things turn out not to be the way they were hinted we will edit the summary it is a living document after-all.Anzenketh (talk) 18:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Is there any information at all in the game or the extended universe to support the edit summary World Season 2&diff=next&oldid=818124 here? if not, I'll revert it back to the edit summary supported by in-game, pre-season 2 lore. Thrain | contribs 16:31, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

"My business is in tatters, and I'm surrounded by refugees who can't buy my stock. Yeah, my day is looking up." ~Evon

There was more during the whole Attack on Lion's Arch stuff, but the wiki doesn't seem to have documented it. Vili 点 17:54, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

protip: that's not the edit summary you're referring to, that's the actual edit content. —Dr Ishmael 18:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I remember that, but the Bazaar update reverses that - and there's no reference to "Gnashblade must now contend with Consortium vultures looking to step into his shoes." that I can find anywhere. Also, my apologies Ishmael. Wiki isn't my first language. Thrain | contribs 18:43, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't remember any references to the Consortium at all during Lion's Arch events, but then I wasn't looking for them...

It's definitely kind of confusing with Evon going from depressed to ecstatic - today he acts as if Scarlet was the best thing that ever happened to business, but during the invasion he was talking as if he was on the verge of insolvency. It might be a ball drop on the part of the writers, or it might be a plot point that will be explained later. I think the best way to describe it would be something along the lines of, "Although Scarlet's invasion initially posed serious economic troubles for the Black Lion Trading Company, Evon Gnashblade's skill at turning a bad situation into a profitable one served him well - and today, his company stands as the single most powerful merchant's association in Lion's Arch, if not the world."

Obviously it should be edited for a more neutral point of view, but something like that. I guess. Vili 点 19:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

something World Season 2&diff=prev&oldid=816111 along the lines of the change I made originally, perhaps? The reason I followed up on this originally is because Santax has written up a blurb without any factual information behind it, and has declined to provide sources when asked to. I don't care who writes what, I just want it to be accurate, neutral, and consistent. It isn't right to leave unsourced, unsubstantiated information on the page - especially when it has been reverted to without reason, without explanation, and without consensus. Thrain | contribs 19:53, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem I have with that version is that it makes it sound like a benign thing (Evon being conscripted), when at the time it was disastrous; Ellen Kiel basically strong-armed Evon, under penalty of death, into providing his goods at prices the Lionguard deemed acceptable, rather than the Black Lion Trading Company. So Santax's "added insult to injury" tone is closer to a factual representation, I feel. It was by good fortune and (maybe) some excellent politics that this dire situation managed to end up being profitable after Scarlet was dealt with.

I think it really depends upon the interpretation of Kiel's intent. It could be seen as a generous act, government stepping in to help the needy; or it could be seen as a spiteful act, Kiel crushing Evon's business while simultaneously relieving the Lionguard of relief effort responsibility. Sadly we only have one side of the story, since (afaik) Ellen didn't talk to players during the attack on LA. And Evon contradicts himself. Vili 点 20:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the "added insult-to-injury" aspect completely. The Zephyrite trading contract was nearly a year ago, and was completely unrelated to his conscription, or the attack on Lion's Arch. As for his conscription - in Kiel's eyes, it was for the good of Lion's Arch, and nothing else. He was the only merchant with stock left, the Lionguard needed that stock, so she conscripted him in order to have the Lionguard better equipped to protect the city. Kiel has been a Lionguard Inspector for a long time, and is very clearly able to put her personal feeling aside when doing her job. I don't see any reason for ulterior motives. Thrain | contribs 20:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The injury was Scarlet; the insult was Kiel conscripting Evon when he had enough to deal with already. He says something along the lines of, "lose my business or lose my life, what lovely alternatives". Kiel has also shown that she doesn't much care for Evon, so the dislike isn't one-sided. Vili 点 20:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

(Reset indent) If that were the case, it would make more sense. But that is not what Santax wrote: "added insult to the injury of losing the Zephyr Sanctum trade contract" -World Season 2&diff=820230 . Thrain | contribs 20:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Re: the change you made originally; as I said above that refers to the state of affairs post-BfLA, and is therefore not the domain of the "Setting" section. And as I also said above, your original words survive almost completely intact, just further down the page, in the Festival of the Four Winds summary. I suspect you haven't read this, since World Season 2&diff=prev&oldid=818124 your revert meant that the same text appeared twice on the page, in two different places.

As for the "insult to injury" issue, as Vili has said, this comes from the fact that not only has Gnashblade has had his business all but destroyed by Scarlet, his situation has been further worsened by his conscription. An alternate way to view it (which is how I had originally intended it to be read) would be that the "injury" was his loss of the Zephyr Sanctum contract and therefore the Captain's Council seat to Kiel, and the "insult" was the indignity of having to serve as a deputy quartermaster on Kiel's orders. The humiliation comes from having his loss of the Captain's Council further rubbed in his face. You say that the trading contract was completely unrelated to his conscription, but actually we haven't any confirmation of this on Kiel's end, whereas on Gnashblade's end we have been explicitly told of his suspicion that Kiel has some sort of a vendetta against him. The proof of this comes from the dialogue in which Evon was originally conscripted, which is documented on the Escape from Lion's Arch (living world) page (should also be on Vigil Keep/dialogue, but that doesn't exist). Specifically, the exchange,

Evon Gnashblade: Just tell me one thing. Kiel—she's dead, right? C'mon, give a guy good news.

Lionguard Jirtta: She and Captain Magnus are at a relief camp to the south. And your deputizing was Captain Kiel's idea.

Evon Gnashblade: Of course it was.

–Santax (talk · contribs) 20:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• "The Festival is part of season 2": This has been clearly covered. Officially (and thus, how we document it on the wiki), it is a prequel to season 2, as season 2 doesn't start until July 1st. Everything in it is part of the setting build-up, not part of season 2.
• "Added insult to injury": Well then, it needs to be rewritten to be about Scarlet, and not about the unrelated Zephyr contract. (As I previously stated, the contract was nearly a year ago, and is not related to the attack on LA.)The statement was clearly only about the trade contract: "The conscription of the proprietor of the Black Lion Trading Company into the Lionguard by Captain Kiel added insult to the injury of losing the Zephyr Sanctum trade contract (and thus, the Ship's Council seat) to her." If you want to revise it to be specifically about how Scarlet's attack damaged his net worth, then it would be more accurate.
• "He thinks Kiel has a vendetta against him": Does not mean she actually does. As we've seen before in his dialogue, Gnashblade is a spiteful, arrogant, paranoid narcissist. We should not document his word as fact - because it is not. Unless Kiel says she did it to spite him (or the game specifically points it out), then we only have her previous actions to go on.

Please let me know if there's anything you brought up that I forgot to mention, as I may have missed something. Also - is there ever any mention of the Consortium outside of that unrelated Tower of Nightmares NPC you linked up above? Thrain | contribs 21:21, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I ever said that FotFW is part of season 2. I was aware that it was a "festival" release before adding it to the article, and as you said it has been covered already. It is currently documented within this summary as if it were a part of season 2 because it takes place after season 1, and to be consistent with the way that festivals were handled in season 1 on the Living World Season 1 page. I'd be absolutely open to suggestions on ways of documenting it that make it more clear, but sadly none have yet been forthcoming.

I think there is actually dialogue somewhere that establishes that Kiel harbours a grudge toward Gnashblade, but actually that's irrelevant to the inclusion of the phrase "added insult to injury" because it is independent of whether Kiel intended to insult Gnashblade; it depends only on whether Gnashblade was insulted, which he provably was. But if the inclusion of that phrase is so contentious, feel free to suggest another *that would be appropriate in that section*. And I don't think there is any other mention of the Consortium that I can immediately recall, but I'd completely disagree that the ToN NPC is unrelated. –Santax (talk · contribs) 00:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

The issue isn't whether or not FotFW is part of season 2, its whether or not it is setting the stage for season 2. Which, as both ArenaNet and in-game sources have shown, it clearly is. I personally think an article about the setting for season 2 should include ALL of the information about the setting for season 2. Would you be able to find the dialogue that mentions that grudge? I haven't run across anything like that, and it would definitely help me see your viewpoint (because without it, any mention of a grudge in the article is just speculation). The issue about "insult to injury" is two main parts - the reference in the article is 100% unrelated (as we've finally agreed upon), and the *new* injury (his conscription) turns out to not be an injury at all. Also, I would very much like to hear how dialogue from an 8-month old NPC from a completely different update is related. Thanks. Thrain | contribs 07:19, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Story Journal

So, it seems that one of the features of the Story Journal is that it provides a fairly detailed summary of the LW. Given that this article has generated a lot of controversy, would people prefer it if we just used the recaps from that instead? I've put the first one up on the Story Journal page, dunno if it'll stay there, but yeah. Thoughts? –Santax (talk · contribs) 00:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I personally prefer a self-written summary over repeating those in-game texts. poke | talk 15:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that self-written summaries are better, as long as they are kept up to date. The Story Journal texts are written in first person from the player characters' point of view and mostly follow the mission steps, and as such they may omit some important information from around the game world and connections to other events. Writing our own summaries allows us to keep the context of other events if needed as well as to leave out unnecessary details about the path our characters chose to go around a rock. 19:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I was originally going to say Just re-cap what is in game. Everyone else make some good arguments otherwise. However I don't think that Story Journal is a good place for it either as that page should really be about the mechanic. That and it will eventually be too long. Perhaps have a summary and a In-Game Recap page. Anzenketh (talk) 00:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I would leave Story Journal for the mechanic, create subpages for the in-game texts by categories (for instance Story Journal/Living World Season 2) and leave this page for our own story summary akin to Living World Season 1. 09:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The journal texts are already listed on the respective story chapter. I think they fit there the best, and don’t really need to be repeated elsewhere. poke | talk 15:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed and for that reason(and we are in agreement) I have reverted the edits. It is now completely player written summary. Have at it with Episode 2 those who write good summaries. Anzenketh (talk) 19:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Chapter Icons

Can someone upload the in-game icons for the various chapters? I know there's one for Entanglement in the game right now, but I have no idea how to access those files. --Rognik (talk) 20:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Done! --Ventriloquist 20:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

For future reference, you can find these on the corresponding achievement category pages (e.g. Entanglement (achievements)). —Dr Ishmael 21:23, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

TOC pushes images lower

Floating images don't mix well with Template:TOCright; TOCright pushes the LW logo down, in turn pushing the LA Aftermath image lower: http://i.imgur.com/PZd4gOy.png --BryghtShadow (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Toc limiter applied to limit it to level 1 and 2 headings, moved to below living world image. Sorted? -Chieftain Alex 10:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorted, yes. Much thanks! --BryghtShadow (talk) 13:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Odd, I hadn't noticed before, but the image on the left seems to be hanging over the top of "Main". Thats not right! -Chieftain Alex 15:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Please remove the exact dates

It won't make sense, and come Halloween, it'll be painfully clear why - if it isn't now. In lore, Wintersday (Tyrian New Year) is the Spring Equinox - for us in the northern hemisphere, that's ~March 20th. The exact date conversion template is tying Wintersday to December 31st/January 1st, because that's when we, the players, get the Wintersday content (because reasons of GW1, long before the syncing of timelines). While that makes sense, an issue falls in that we experience Halloween in Tyria at the same time we do ourselves. Why is this issue? Halloween is explicitly called to be an autumn holiday (one of many examples being Thorn's nickname "The Autumn Lunatic"), and placing 01 Season of the Zephyr to being January 1st places Halloween - a holiday in Fall - to be within the Season of the Colossus, aka Winter. This makes no logical sense, and even then we have no proper means of telling the dates as we can't really say that each instance happens on every other Tuesday (not to mention that there were a series of events at the end of Season 1 - post the announcement of syncing calendars - where we have mechanically repeating events happening once in lore, such as the Twisted Marionette and Escape from/Battle for Lion's Arch, and even the descriptions about Escape->Battle gives rise to indicate that only a single, or very few, days passed between the two, and not two weeks).
In short, it's just a confusing system that ArenaNet did not put a lot of thought into, and we should not try to fill it out any more than they do. The calendars are "synced" up, but that doesn't mean our January 1st is meant to be their 01 Season of the Zephyr while our October 31st is meant to be their 30 Season of the Colossus, just as it would make no sense for each release to literally be every other Tuesday (else all of Tyria are complete idiots for not going on high alert every other Tuesday). Konig 16:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Point of No Return: Caithe's words

Could anyone add to Point of No Return that Caithe believes they can break free from destiny (and therefore Mordremoth's influence), though that "will require strength, strategy and insight". I don't trust my wording, so if Konig or someone could add this little (but significant) detail there. – Valento ^msg 10:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)