Talk:Gender and sexuality in Tyria

Nadim (Sun's Refuge)

I'm pretty sure this guy's got a crush on Koss, considering his dialogue and the fact that little hearts pop up over him if you have the Commander say they'll put in a good word with him. The page is protected, so I can't add him as an example myself, but maybe someone with permission can in the future? Ozimul (talk) 18:27, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Tangent, but I'm totally headcanoning that pair of home instance asura with the "switched up" voices as trans 😛 -- kazerniel (talk) 15:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Sylvari sex vs. gender

re: "Sylvari superficially resemble humans and are granted a gender by the Pale Tree while still in their pods"

I propose that we rewrite this to "Sylvari superficially resemble humans and are granted a sex by the Pale Tree while still in their pods".

I think the devs in the quoted forum post used sex and gender interchangeably. It would make sense that the Pale Tree decides the bodily sex (like other bodily features that the sylvari can later modify), but she doesn't decide any other aspect of sylvari's personality, so it would be strange if gender was the only exception. -- kazerniel (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for the feedback! —Idris 21:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Missing queer characters

The list is missing the 2 female charr from the Labyrinthine Cliffs. 80.56.227.199 13:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

They are Cadell & Nerys, already added :) -- kazerniel (talk) 13:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

In the Labyrinthine Cliffs there's an Omlakhan Charr family that has a cub they refer to as their son. The cub appears to use the female model. So I believe the cub could be considered transgender. -Exaltedarchivist (talk) 21:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

More likely a bug. That NPC is not the only example of the model not matching text description or voice. Konig (talk) 22:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I've added to note to his article that points out the model discrepancy, so anyone who wants to interpret him as trans is given every opportunity to do so, but we just can't make that claim ourselves without further evidence to confirm it. —Idris 23:51, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Joko trivia

Seems that this line: "Of the major queer characters, the only male representation is a villain" is a controversial inclusion, as per this reddit comment thread and a discussion some of us had on discord. Given that we created this article so that users interested in queer representation would have a convenient resource, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to point out a potential failing for users who may not have picked up on it; on the other hand, this trivia is rather opinionated, and may be too biased for inclusion on a page that should be about documentation rather than editorializing. —Idris 13:48, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I brought this topic back to discord, and consensus is that the trivia is not a good idea. Removing. —Idris 16:07, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Reworking/renaming the article

So we've had a bit of feedback regarding the use of the word "queer". While it's a useful word in that it covers anyone who isn't straight or cis, it's also quite jargony and has a history of being used as a slur. We've also had some feedback saying that the article's focus is too niche. I do think it could be beneficial to expand the article's focus a little. My proposal:

• Rename to "Gender and sexuality in Tyria"
• Replace the list of queer characters with a link to the category. Notable examples (ought to be a lot of them!) will be retained as mentions within the lore section, which I plan on expanding.
• Lore section will introduce itself by outlining the "default" form gender and sexuality takes, before splitting into subsections that address variances in gender, same-sex relationships, and interspecies relationships amongst various races.

An alternative approach could be to delete the article entirely and move the lore to various relevant articles, but I personally feel that the article has value, even if it's niche. Please let me know your thoughts. —Idris 17:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

• I wouldn't mind the "Gender and sexuality in Tyria" rename, but then it would also need to include the gender roles (or lack of them) in various sentient races. Now that I think of it, none of the races have particularly any gender roles. (With the exceptions of the Flame Legion and the Sons of Svanir.) But nontheless, pointing out the differences to real-world Western societies is a valuable information.
• I wouldn't remove the list from the article, as it's not that long, and just pointing to the category would remove the current specifics listed next to their names and separate couples into just individuals.
• I like the third point :) -- kazerniel (talk) 18:20, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Personally, I don't mind the article name containing queer, but I can see why people might have a problem with it. "Gender and sexuality in Tyria" seems like a good alternative title, even though it would require the article to contain more information, like you said. Like Kazerniel said, I would keep the list until it gets to long, then I'd link to the category instead. Point 3 sounds good to me. Almdudler (talk) 20:29, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

The bums on discord who are too good for talk pages seem to be in agreement about the name change, in which case I'll also go ahead with a rewrite of the lore section to better match it. I'll leave the list of characters as-is, as per your feedback. Thanks for the responses. :) —Idris 23:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I kind of hate the current version because there's not really enough lore to justify this structure; it was better as a focused, niche article imo. But screw it, I tried. —Idris 02:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for acting as messenger :) I don't think Discord is particularly good for wiki discussions, as specific topics get buried very quickly in the stream of messages. Talk pages are much better organised and archived ^^; -- kazerniel (talk) 02:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

• "[...]same-sex relationships are uncommon in Tyria" I think this needs to be rewritten. We don't know this to be a fact/how common or uncommon same-sex relationships are in Tyria canonically. -Exaltedarchivist (talk) 21:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

This information was sourced from an interview with Ree Soesbee: "[Non-sylvari] races have a history of same-sex relationships, but those relationships tend to be downplayed and not lauded within the culture. This is not to say that the races of Tyria are naturally homophobic; they're absolutely not. It's simply not particularly common." —Idris 22:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

• "For most races in Tyria, reproduction requires a male and a female; consequently, these races approach gender and sexuality in a similar manner...." This is a weird and very uncomfortable assumption to make. Associating reproduction with gender and sexuality is very irrelevant. Likewise, assuming that sexual or romantic preference associated with the need to reproduce is a poor assumption to make. The previous intro may have been better - but this definitely needs a revisit / rewrite. Forgottenrecords (talk) 21:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, it does. Renaming the article necessitated describing mixed-sex relationships too, and I really didn't know what to write beyond "I mean it's basically the same as the real-life default, which is heavily correlated with how reproduction works". I'm unhappy with the current state of the article, but I also just don't know what to do to fix it. If you'd like to try rewriting the intro, it'd be appreciated, though you don't have to. —Idris 22:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Sadly I can't really edit this at the moment - but here's some suggestions I'll throw in:

• "Men and women are regarded equally by many races, though there are some factions, such as the Sons of Svanir and Flame Legion, who regard women as inferior to men." Might want to either remove this, or throw this under "Gender Roles" under the "Gender" category.
• "For most races in Tyria, reproduction requires a male and a female; consequently, these races approach gender and sexuality in a similar manner, with most individuals identifying with one of two genders and pairing up in mixed-sex relationships." - Maybe remove this entirely? And replace it with something as simple as:

• "Gender and sexuality in Tyria are generally regarded on equal terms, despite mixed-sex relationships being more common." (Insert Ree Soesbee reference here) (With how short some other intros on other articles are - I don't think you need to go beyond that. I don't even know if you need to mention the "despite mixed-sex relationships being more common" part, as it seems repeated below.)

I would also probably change the title to something along the lines of "Gender, love, and sexuality" or something with the word "Diversity" in it that may be easier to search for.

I hope that helps a bit! - Forgottenrecords (talk) 04:06, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestions! We'll definitely bear them in mind when revisiting the intro. I've been a bit too emotionally involved with this article and it's resulted in some bad decisions, so I'll be holding off making any major edits to it while I clear my head. Hopefully someone will come along to fix the intro in the meantime, but if not I'll take another look at it when I'm in a better headspace. :) —Idris 04:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I think the name is fine as it is. We can always set up redirects to this page for different search phrases, and it doesn't hurt to briefly talk about the "defaults" for sexually reproducing races. Btw it's not a romantic relationship, but if we mention cross-species families, we could include Brokka's family (an asura parent with an adopted charr and human child). -- kazerniel (talk) 12:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Dredge feminist letter

Just want to link here that Hastily Written Letter I stumbled upon some years ago. As far as I recall, it's the only instance of someone commenting on another race's gender norms. -- kazerniel (talk) 01:52, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I mean, if you exclude the charr with Flame Legion / Kalla and female rebellion (which is pretty much a femininest movement through war); the Sons of Svanir's male dominance movement; the jotun hiding away their females, and harpies being a female dominant race that hides away their males (though the last bit isn't confirmed to still be canon, sadly). All these sources are talked about outside their races, technically; just without commentary about the commentor's own race's gender norms. Konig (talk) 02:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like we could write a fair bit about the way certain genders are treated by various cultures, then. —Idris 04:08, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Definitely. I was planning on expanding the article this weekend. Been too busy this week and will be tomorrow too to do so properly. Konig (talk) 06:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for these sources! I was thinking of actual in-game text or dialogues, forgot about these official stories :) -- kazerniel (talk) 12:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Category name

We still have a category called "Queer characters". Discussion on discord regarding renaming seems to be pointing in the direction that renaming to "LGBT characters" would be best, as this is recommended by GLAAD and also reflects how wikipedia approaches naming articles on the topic. —Idris 15:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Feedback 2020/01/17

Many of these sources don’t actually say what they’re quoted to support. Sometimes they say exactly the opposite. This page is full of misinformation, which is sad for such an important topic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.203.9.101 (talk) at 17:34, 17 January 2020‎ (UTC).

Could you provide specific examples of mistakes? -- kazerniel (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Delete / Rewrite

This article is in conflict with the wiki's stance of not taking a side in real-world political matters. Even if ArenaNet and our editors agree on the topic of LGBT+ rights, the wiki itself cannot make such a statement. As it stands, this article needs to be rewritten without editorialization, and with an effort to ignore personal biases. horrible | contribs 17:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern, but this article is not in conflict with our policies. We're documenting the game as it is, with no relation to real-world politics. It just so happens that there are genders and sexuality in a fictional world. If you choose to see a real-world connection, that's entirely on you. Have a good day. talk 17:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Inc. this is a talk page, where discussions happen. If I had wanted the administration to make a judgement, I would have written on the admin noticeboard instead. horrible | contribs 17:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I think you're a bit mistaken here. I answered as a user, not in my position as admin. Neither did I pass judgment, I just clarified that there was no breach of policies as far as I could see it. Hope this clears things up a bit! :) By all means, discuss away. talk 17:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

As Inc mentioned, gender and sexuality is absolutely a thing that exists in the game, and acknowledging its presence is not inherently political. While it could be argued that it's biased to create a dedicated lore article addressing this topic when we don't specifically address other topics that still exist in the game (such as, say, fashion or racism), our decision to do so was in response to user requests for a summary article on the topic. We have done this in the past with other topics such as the existence of horses, so if this article is problematic, then so is Horse.

That said, the political nature of this particular topic does make it a very difficult one to address, as biased editorializing can all too easily creep in. I agree that the wording of this article could be further improved, up to and including a full rewrite. Do you have any suggestions on how we could accomplish that? —Idris 17:42, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

My own thoughts on current examples of bias:

1. There are a few reassurances scattered through the article that LGBT stuff is uncontroversial in-universe, which is supported by a reference to this dev post on how roleplayers should feel free to create LGBT characters without worrying about it clashing with the lore. While I feel that this is an appropriate interpretation of the source, I do think the conclusions drawn are too vague.
2. The intro needs a rewrite; I feel we could mention ANet's stance on the topic as a way of reassuring readers that we are simply documenting the game.
3. It's unclear whether the Norn Savage's use of the word "partner" refers to a same-sex relationship or simply a same-sex adventuring team, yet we're assuming the former.
4. The article may be relying too strongly on jargon usually only seen within queer spaces and may confuse readers less familiar with such terms: "pansexuality", "gender variance", etc. The terms are being applied neutrally, imo, but they might feel biased to readers who don't understand them or who wouldn't be inclined to use them.
5. I'm not sure what the source is on the line about gender-variant men being looked down upon in certain circles.

—Idris 18:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, most of the information in the article has a source attached to it, therefore bearing qualities of it being wikiable (is that an adjective). Feel free to direct one to any parts of the article that are biased or/and without a reliable source. ❄The F. Prince❄ (talk) 17:59, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

As per Inc, I believe the article accurately reflects the state of the game to the best of the writers' ability. As per Idris and Prince, that doesn't mean it can't be improved on. - Felix Omni 18:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Thanks for the inputs. Before I add request tags to the main article, I have a few questions:

• are there any instances of trans (or GNC) characters other than Sya? Major sections of this article make claims regarding historical acceptance, when the only instance of such is one character in modern-day LA who gets relatively brushed off in an NPC dialogue, and is regarded as "Brave" by the character. if something is normally accepted, I am confused as to why it would be considered brave.
• gay/lesbian/bi couples appear to be limited to present tyria. Given the lack of LGBT+ inclusion in gw1, this does not seem to include historical acceptance. Instead it seems to imply queer erasure, if we assume that LGBT+ people did exist during this time period.
• It's mentioned several times that interspecies relationships remain taboo, but I'm unsure where this claim comes from? Is it solely from the dialogue with a Snargle Goldclaw? Seems odd to base the morality of an entire planet off of the words of one member of one species (a species which has, historically, been xenophobic and rigidly sexist)

Thanks! horrible | contribs 19:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Regarding GNC characters and historical acceptance of LGBT: the source for these is the dev comment on roleplaying that I linked in my previous comment. I agree that assuming it was uncontroversial historically is a big stretch and we should remove that; I think the intention was to imply a general sense of acceptance. We do have a possible source for LGBT chars in GW1: a pair of flirting nobles in Bokka's palace whose genders are randomized.

Regarding interspecies relationships: yeah, I think we probably are lacking in sources for that too, and it should be reworded to focus on Snargle's opinion rather than a broad statement about general acceptance. —Idris 19:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the most recent edit: I'm not sure it's necessary to include empty stub sections for minor races such as Giganticus Lupicus and the Forgotten unless we actually have something relevant to write about. I assume this was inspired by my addition of a stub for asura, but being a playable race I feel we kind of have to address them. Article's starting to look kind of bloated tbh; we could consolidate the minor races into a more general section which describes similar trends amongst them? —Idris 19:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Fair point. I'll remove the extra sections, just felt like the bottom section was a bit empty without them. horrible | contribs 19:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Mako - The Scenic Route?

It's mostly speculation due to the name so I haven't added them into the article, but there's a really beautiful book in The Scenic Route step. It's a diary entry about the feelings of Mako "a humble fisher and boatswoman" towards someone named Aya who is engaged to someone else/under different circumstances but appears to return those feelings despite being unable to act on them.

Aya can be both a male and a female name (because it's a male name in the middle-east) but it is a very common Japanese female name, and considering Cantha has a lot of East Asian influences, I'd assume that the Aya being referred to here is female, especially as a lot of the description used 'Your beauty, your elegance... ' 'with your hair bound to keep it from billowing in the wind' are more stereotypically feminine descriptors?

Felt like it had queer subtext to me so I thought I'd note it here in case anyone finds Aya, or thinks that it's evidence enough that it's worth adding in :) Gwylen (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Updating here with a small discussion that was had in Discord about it. Someone was able to cross-check the language used to refer to Aya in this book with GW2's German translation of it -

• "the german translation uses "Geliebte" which is the female version of beloved, lover or mistress, so I'd say it's safe to say Aya is female"
• "Aya's fiancé is male if that matters in any way ("Verlobter" being the male version in german)"

I wasn't sure how common inter-checking things like this between different language wikis was for reference, but I'm hoping the translation alongside the two hints above is okay for a reference on this one? :)

I've added it to the list for now, but let me know if there are any issues! Gwylen (talk) 01:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)