Guild Wars 2 Wiki talk:Hero challenge formatting

Naming conventions

So, I wanted to put this here now, because I have a feeling it will come up at some point or another, but: I've put it in the formatting/practices document that the article should be the name of the initiator, or what is in the world that initiates the skill challenge. Which means that an article which involves communing with the Hidden Falls interactive object would be on the page "Hidden Falls" instead of "Commune with Hidden Falls." This might seem foolish, because then we have the "Hidden Falls skill challenge," which is a bit more awkwardly worded than the "Commune with the Hidden Falls skill challenge." However, I chose this because when someone is attempting to search for a skill challenge page, they are almost absolutely likely to search for the page for the skill challenge that they are at in-game named "Hidden Falls," as opposed to trying to figure out what they have to do at that skill challenge, and then trying every permutation of whatever they come up with until they get it right. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, there is never any NPC that is both a skill challenge and instrumental/does anything other than be a skill challenge. Therefore, having the skill challenge be the page for that NPC means that all relevant information is in the same place, and that there isn't redundancy or second-guessing down the road, as is the case where some pages link to Defeat Swift Arrow, while others link to Swift Arrow, the two being entirely separate pages with the same information and no link between the two.

That was my reasoning. If someone sees a huge flaw in it, point it out here, but otherwise, that's what we'll go with. --Jyavoc 05:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I put specifications for each type of skill challenge. Most of the skill challenges can be described with existing infoboxes and should be directed to those pages for appropriate formatting (opposed to copypasting here). They are a special type of event and so need that case addressed in the event infobox template. The item and object infoboxes don't require special attention except that some communing challenges end with the sword icon when you aren't actually fighting stuff.--Relyk 07:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

For clarification purposes, are the specifications you added to mean that we should be including "Skill Challenge: " as part of the page title? It is part of the in-game event title, so I can understand from that point, but it might also seem a bit redundant. Can you clarify on this? —Jyavoc 03:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

It's the name of the event so that's the name of the article. You would search the entire name of the event if you were to look it up. It will also help differentiate skill challenge events from normal events.--Relyk 05:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

A somewhat auxiliary question, then, but I was working with another user yesterday, and does the same apply to Group events? Where we are suppose to prefix [Group Event] before them, as in game? (I ask because we couldn't find an example of this, one way or the other). Also, if we're to do this, would this be something we'd want to have redirects for? The event names without [Skill Challenge] redirect to the article with [Skill Challenge]? It seems to me that enough users might not expect to put [Skill Challenge] with the event name to merit a redirect, but I don't want to go redirect crazy without a good enough reason. —Jyavoc 06:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Adding "Skill Challenge:" or "[Group Event]" to event article titles seems arbitrary. We've already documented a vast majority without them, and they are not part of the event names iirc (the completion version of them removes those prefixes). I disagree with adding them. Konig/talk 18:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Konig, those prefixes are not part of the event name, they are qualifiers for ease of visual identification in-game. —Dr Ishmael 21:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Issues

1. "Sparring-style" and "Veteran battle style" (more accurately called "horde" fights since not every one has a vet and most are outright stated to be "and its horde/brood/lackies") are both events and as such should use the {{event infobox}}, not {{NPC infobox}}. Similarly, since they act no different than any other event, the format should be akin to that seen here.
2. "Communing-style" should use ==Text== not ==Dialogue==. There is no need for a "Before completion" and "After completion" since the dialogue never changes, only the responses. This is perfectly shown by having {{dialogue icon|skillno}} and {{dialogue icon|skillyes}} beforehand.
   • This goes the same for " Communing dialogue" in "Common elements" (which isn't all that common, btw, since half of the communing dialogues differ into 3 or so formats).
3. "Consuming-style" - besides being a silly name (what's with all the -style?), it should be using {{item infobox}} and standard item format (which doesn't seem to hold a guideline). They are not objects, which would be the yellow-text static interactive "things" in the game.
4. "Other (initiated by an interactive object)" and "Other (initiated by an NPC)" - I have no clue what's meant by this. There are 3 "others" - reading through dialogue, quiz, and siege weapon. Of these, there are 2 quizes, 4 dialogue (1 NPC, 3 objects), and 2 sieges (1 having an event thus would be formatted no different than Sparring/Horde) - unless I am missing some for not having 100% map completion (possible). These would be formatted no different than what respectively gives the skill point - NPC, object, or event. The one from the object should be formatted no differently than communing except for text, and the dialogue is no different when repeated, so there is no "before" and "after" (same with NPC one too). Konig/talk 03:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, just right off the bat, there is no parameter within {{item infobox}} to specify anything for skill challenges. So we're left with either modifying that infobox, which already has the location that icons on other infoboxes are being using for another icon, or we have to put the skill challenge information on the pages for that which distributes the consumable, and accept that.

I have no qualms with the label being changed from "Dialogue" to "Text." I'm not overly fond of the idea of using {{dialogue icon|skillno}} and {{dialogue icon|skillyes}} before the options, but I think I can swallow it and learn to accept it, because it does seem like a better idea, even if the double icons looks like a lot of clutter to me.

As for the communing dialogues, I provided just one; we would provide more—the three or so formats that are present in the game. Otherwise that section wouldn't make any sense...

As for other, it was discussed here, and though we could come up with more types of skill challenges, we decided on "other" due to the fact that there were only a handful of them, in comparison to the other types of skill challenges. Though that was specifically concerning the infobox at the time, I feel like some of that could apply here.

As for the sparring-style and veteran battle style, I just simply hadn't had the time to change it yet after our conversation on your talk page. —Jyavoc 03:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

A parameter can be added - or, since there's so few such items, it can be manually added.

I'm not particular fond of those icons too, however the only alternatives I've seen results in either duplicating the entire text, or in separating the dialogue options with a line of ;After communing which looks worse than the other two.

The section (Common elements) not making sense is, more or less, my point. It can be removed. Especially since everything in it is already under the Communing-style section too.

My point is that they are all, more or less, the same - the "other" are either some sort of siege skill, or it's dialogue (going through it one after the other, or doing a quiz). And that of the siege one, it's either going to be an event (of which there's 1) or denoted on the NPC (of which there's 1) - the former would be no different from battle skill challenges, the latter no different from dialogue skill challenges. Outside the obvious that changes between them all (objectives and dialogue/text respectively). Konig/talk 04:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

What I'm saying with the {{Item infobox}} is that, with the other infoboxes, we have all skill challenge icons in the top right corner. In the items infobox, that is already taken up by the inventory icon for the item. As in, there isn't room for us to put the skill challenge icon there. And we can use different infoboxes, fine, but we aren't going to have some infoboxes with the icon and some without, because that just makes it all far too confusing and far too disorganized.

One idea that we could do is at the end (or beginning) of the dialogue options, we can put (Before completion) or what have you. It has the same information value as using the dialogue icons, but not having two icons next to each other makes it easier to read. And for the record, I'm meaning something like " (Before completion) Commune with this place of power." vs "(Before completion) Commune with this place of power."

For the sake of this discussion, if we are going to discuss the different types of skill challenges, it would probably be helpful then to have a definitive list of every type of skill challenge. Not how many there are of each (approximately), but just a list, so we know what we're dealing with. We could make better decisions regarding how to format this page if we know what content we're dealing with and can discuss that. —Jyavoc 04:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• Combat (Event)
• Dialogue (NPC or Object - quiz included)
• Commune (Object)
• Siege
• Item

As far as I know, that's all the kinds of skill challenges there are. Combat being fighting 1, or fighting a "horde" (usually 3-4). Dialogue refers to both quizes and those like Book (The Vizier's Tower)'s skill challenge which is just pressing more multiple times. Siege being the obvious Deputy Crackshot (and any possible like skill challenges) which don't require talking to an NPC, but it is signified in-game via an NPC. Item is talking to an object, receiving an item, and using said item.
On dialogue, I don't see a need to gray out the text - that's actually a bad idea. I don't see much difference between using an icon, which is shorter, and (before completion)/(after completion) tbh. If the item infobox bugs you so much, we can always just denote the object - which is static - as the skill challenge rather than the item, since said object would have the icon and categories anyways. Konig/talk 05:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

We can have a "Skill challenge" item type, they are a special type of consumable.--Relyk 05:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

But I like how the other infoboxes have the skill challenge icon in the upper right-hand corner; it makes it that much easier and more plain. Also, if we didn't have that icon on the {{Item infobox}} but we do on {{NPC infobox}}, {{Object infobox}}, and {{Event infobox}}, that makes an unneeded discrepancy. I'm not sure that I have a solution, but I believe it's something that we should look at if we're to use the {{Item infobox}}.

Konig, that seems like an exhaustive list. I haven't done every skill challenge, but I'm hard pressed to recall any outside of those five. I'm game for accepting those as the types of skill challenges, if no one else speaks up. —Jyavoc 06:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Object and NPC are interchangeable for most of these - I know there's at least 1 "item" challenge that you get from an NPC, [1] (not using internal link format since I know it will be deleted soon). Just don't want anyone getting stuck on "Oh the formatting says this type is only from an object, this one's from an NPC, so we have to debate the whole issue over again!" —Dr Ishmael 13:52, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The problem here isn't so much that we're wanting to say that "every communing skill challenge has to be an object" or "every combat skill challenge has to be from an NPC;" it was on konig's talk page, I believe, that it was restated that the skill challenge would be formatted with whatever it was that actually gave the skill point (ie, "Defeat Swift Arrow" (event) instead of "Swift Arrow" (npc)). The problem, then, is extending that concept to the consumable skill challenges, because the consumable is what rewards the skill point, but there is, as of now, no way to use {{item infobox}} and denote it as a skill challenge, especially with the icon on the header. —Jyavoc 15:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Object and NPC formats are more or less interchangable (though there is no NPC communing nor any Object quiz, afaik) since the formatting only differs with the infobox and the dialogue/text section's set up (aside from section title, objects don't get quotation marks unlike NPCs, unless the quotation marks are in the actual text). I don't think it'll ever come up as a debating issue. Just denote the difference for those few rare exceptions.

And Jyavoc, if the icon is the only thing you're having an issue with there's a very easy solution. Add in a second icon position for when there's need for a second icon. Konig/talk 18:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(actual curiosity, not mocking) Where would you suggest we put the second icon? Overlapping the inventory icon? Or in a whole other place? And we if choose the latter option, we'd go and change it for the other infoboxes too, so it doesn't appear that they are scattered about the place? It's a visual thing, I understand, but the wiki already looks too pretty to look ugly. —Jyavoc 19:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Directly to direct and immediate the left of the standard icon. Konig/talk 19:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) If we do that, though, we'd be allowing so little room for the name of the consumable. Already with one icon, many of the consumable items wrap to the second line of the infobox. Taking away the sixty pixels+ (and more, with the padding) by adding a second icon, we could easily have instances where the name wraps to the fourth, fifth line. —Jyavoc 19:25, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Clean up Caused Questions

I did a general fix up of formatting in regards to stuff like dialogue indenting/bold/italics, removing things that aren't needed/don't exist (ie removing having to put the icon in as it shows up as soon as "service = hero challenge" is put in, categories that don't actually exist, etc.), and adding in stuff like "you don't need to put in name/image unless the name/image is different from the page". I have three questions as a result:

1. I noticed that nothing here has a location. I wonder if this was just an oversight or if it is preferred to not have a location section, though I'm not sure why since HPs are part of map completion.
2. Shouldn't "Veteran battle style (begun by an object)" be removed since if you add to {{dialogue icon|combat}} to "Other (initiated by an interactive object)" to does both jobs nicely, no? (Plus I've never seen any hero challenge object that spawns a fight have a Foes section on the page)
3. Why are there two formats for commune dialogue on the page? While I think I've seen the one higher up used more often, we really should use the bottom one as it follows the "before" and "after" format that the rest do and, most importantly I would think, it shows the dialogue as accurately/as it would be in game. The top version doesn't since not all communes have a closing line before completing, and sometimes when a commune HP has a different closing line before completing then after doing so, it just looks weird to have all the dialogue bunched up like that using the top format, such as with Ascalonian Aqueduct.

Once those are figured out, I would think it would be okay to remove the notice on top about it being a draft, no? Heh. - Do_odleplex 01:00, 16 May 2017 (UTC)