User talk:Mtew/flames

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This is the discussions for User:Mtew that in MY opinion contain more heat than light. I will apply the same rules as I use on User talk:Mtew except that the 'reasonable' rule will be relaxed.

RC list noise

Please find yet another wiki for your testing purposes; I know this wiki isn't the most active, but it's hard to see what activity there is when they're overshadowed by your bulk test edits. I'd suggest http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Installation, where at least you won't be nagged by the likes of me. Thanks. -- Pling \ talk 19:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Scuse, but I'm trying to get a template from GWW implemented here. Since I'm not allowed to simply copy it from GWW, it is taking a little time to recreate it from scratch. --Max 2 20:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

With proper attribution, it is possible to copy GWW content to GW2W since both wikis use the same license. To make that attribution easier, sysops can import the whole history of one page. If you tell me the page and history you want imported, I can do that for you if you wish. -- Pling \ talk 20:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

'Template:Folder Tabs' and 'Template:Folder Tab'. BTW what you said means that information on the main page is incorrect or at least needs clarification. --Max 2 20:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Done - Template:Folder Tabs, Template:Folder Tab. As long as you give the source of the information you're copying (e.g. link to the history of the copied page), copying GFDL content should be fine - the authors need to be attributed. In regards to the main page, I think you mistook "GuildWiki" for "Guild Wars Wiki"; I've added a link for clarification. -- Pling \ talk 20:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Subtle differences like that sometimes go right by me and I don't notice. --Max 2 21:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to reiterate Pling's original point regarding the number of edits you've been making to your folder tabs pages. You've made over 100 edits to them in the past 2 days, which would be quite a bit even on GWW, but over here on GW2W it's completely overwhelming RecentChanges. As Pling said, you might consider just making your own test wiki where you can experiment to your heart's content without disrupting RC and without being bothered by others. - Tanetris 08:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Not to get in the middle of things, but what exactly are you (Mtew) doing here? Is it a set of folder templates for your user page? I see lots of editing, and I'm a bit confused. Mat Cauthorn, The Botanist 15:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Tanetris: You do have a good point there. Unfortunately, you have also missed an important point. These are an interacting set of templates and are intended specifically for use in the GWW/GW2W environment. Creating them on another WIKI might be possible, but runs the risk that I might fail to recreate the GWW/GW2W environment properly. Template development inherently requires saving partial results because the results can only be tested if a copy exists on the server. The process does indeed create a lot of RC list noise, but it is confined to minor edits in user space. Those should be easily recognizable and thus ignorable.

Mat: While I do make extensive use of tabbed navigation templates, the result is intended for general use, not just my personal use. They are a work in progress and, as such, should be developed in the sandbox environment of user space. The completed set will be moved to the public template space for anyone to use and will be a replacement for 'Template:Folder Tab' and 'Template:Folder Tabs'.

I try to be aware of the sensibilities of the vandal patrol. Unfortunately template development is a noisy process. I am trying to do it in a place and in a way that is both effective and minimally disruptive. Suggestions on how to improve the process without shutting it down are welcome. --Max 2 16:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Special:Version and gw1:Special:Version show the exact versions and extensions we're running on the respective wikis (note that they aren't currently the same), taking any guesswork out of replicating the environments precisely.

That being said, I really don't understand your fascination with this folder tabs pet project of yours. It is ugly, inefficiently requires an essentially blank page at the top-level of each group of pages, is complicated both to code and to use, and accomplishes nothing that a simple navbox doesn't. If you like it for your userspace, well and good for you, and it's considerate of you to make it available to other users who might also (though I have yet to see evidence that such people exist), but unless/until folder tabs fill some unexpected niche that our other tools do not or there is some massive upheaval of public opinion, it should be considered as a userpage template. That doesn't mean you need to stop working on it, but it does mean that when it's getting in the way of patrolling RC on either wiki, something needs to change. Whether that's working on your own private test wiki, consolodating pages so fewer subtemplates need to be editted, simply limitting how much you work on it per day, or some other solution, I leave up to you. - Tanetris 22:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There is more to a WIKI than just the installed extensions.  GWW has a richer environment than GW2W.  When Plingggggg copied 'Template:Folder Tab' and 'Template:Folder Tabs' over, I did have to make some adjustments to get them to work here.  In fact, there are still some problems with their documentation that should be fixed. 

Ugly is, of course, a personal opinion (and using the term in a derogatory fashion nudges the NPA rule slightly).  The templates are very flexible and the having an essentially blank page at the top of the sub-page hierarchy is only one of several ways to use them.  There are also multiple implementations of similar templates in use by various users on GWW.  As for the amount of editing required, the initial creation did need many test edits.  The current stage of development is documentation and refinement.  More of the edits are section edits now, with the number of edits to the code itself coming at a much slower rate than previously.  The justification for the amount of interference with the RC patrols is also a mater of personal priorities.  I think content creation, including template creation, justifies some noise on the RC list.  As I said above, the stuff I am doing should be easy to identify and ignore. 

Oh, and thank you for your ever so kind permission to continue this project.  --Max 2 00:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ugly would be a personal attack (albeit a pretty weak one) if it was directed at a person. Templates are not people. Nor are they content by any but the loosest interpretation. They are formatting.

The only thing I can think of other than software versions and installed extensions that might affect the way a template works is other templates. You can always copy those so long as proper attribution and licensing is maintained. Is there something else I'm not thinking of?

The "clutter RC less" thing was not a suggestion. See the (admittedly invisible) admin hat? Not just a(n invisible) fashion statement. - Tanetris 01:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Your lack of insight, failure of comprehension and tardiness in performing your duties (see the pending deletion list) is truly amazing. Oh, and threats? You should probably be aware that my main functional disabilitoes are that threats send me into a rage and I have absolutely no respect for authority that is not based on competence. --Max 2 05:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding an edit summary when tagging something for deletion ("+delete" is short and clear for example) will get things deleted faster, as I don't think any of us check the candidates for deletion here very often (since there's usually no point). Thanks for pointing it out, though; there were some images that had been sitting on there for awhile.

I clarified that I am acting as an admin for the simple reason that not everyone knows the admin list by heart, and it may not have been obvious. Both your insults and your threat of "raging" mean little to me, as does your apparent catch-22 that you do not listen to "incompetent" authority, and anyone who interferes with what you want to do or how you want to do it is apparently "incompetent". Regardless, I assume everything's clear now. If there are any remaining points, I'm around. - Tanetris 16:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting what I said. I do rage at threats. I am aware you are a 'sysop' and I knew that before you brought it up. Since I did know that, I felt that your bring it up was an attempt to make a not-so-subtle threat. I also did not say anything about 'incompetent'; I only said that my respect for authority is limited to the competence of that authority. That means that I question your judgment on what is 'ugly', your understanding of what constitutes 'content' and your lack of insight into the structure of a WIKI. I understand that some people feel insulted when their judgment is questioned. I could probably have been a bit more tactful, but, as I noted, I was in a bit of a rage. Thank you for cleaning up the 'delete list' --Max 2 16:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Stop being so fucking insane. Thanks in advance. -Auron 17:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

No can do. Sorry. (FU2) --Max 2 17:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

what are you actually doing and why? i mean you've spent hours on this and i don't quite get why Penners 19:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as that goes, Auron seems to understand... It's sort of a recursive math problem, but then again it's not math. Just complicated and full of ticklish details. --Max 2 20:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

i was right. the wikis are the answer to all lifes problems--Penners 20:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

So why are you still ignoring the requests/advice to create your own test wiki? As Tanetris said, you can copy anything you want from either wiki, as long as you provide attribution. You wouldn't be rendering our recentchanges useless or unreadable, and perhaps you won't find yourself getting in a rage because there won't be anyone bothering you. I've personally created a wiki before, so I know it's not hard - various other people on GWW have done the same in order to test and create things (for example, Poke tests his templates and extensions on his own private wiki before taking them to GWW).

I know template-creation requires some saving and testing, but I don't believe I've ever seen as much saving and saving and saving from one person before. Your template code looks 100x more complicated than, say, Emily's tab template, and I'm sure that's 1000x times easier to use - perhaps you could use those (maybe with some changes to personalise the look for yourself) instead of reinventing the wheel (again).

Again, I'm asking that you create your own wiki, or use something that's already created, finished, and readily available. I'm not sure if you've yet looked at Special:Recentchanges over the past few days, but I'm finding it hard to make any use of it. We've provided alternate means through which you can carry on testing or acquiring templates, most of us have been somewhat patient with your editing so far, but we're not seeing any consideration back. -- Pling \ talk 21:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

<Troll droppings moved to the /Sewer...>

You may not have noticed but the kinds of things I have been editing has changed and the number of tests needed has dropped some.

Just maybe I'm not being quite insane enough — If I did this kind of thing from a 'bot' account, would it make you happier? --Max 2 22:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

You having a bot account would only make it worse. Given the edits you did on GWW, I don't trust you using a bot account for the benefit of the wiki. And that you are constantly ignoring all advices to make yourself a test wiki makes it even worse.

Seriously, there is really no reason why you shouldn't create a test wiki for your work; it is neither hard to do, nor hard to work with. And as said before, you can simply import pages you need for testing. And then you can clutter RC as much as you want, really. poke | talk 22:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)