User talk:Morgaine/Feedback/Price Superior Rune of Holding more reasonably

PLEASE NOTE: This page has been factored out of its parent Talk page at User_talk:Morgaine/Feedback to improve readability.

The following discussion relates to the user feedback topic at User:Morgaine/Feedback#Price Superior Rune of Holding more reasonably.

I agree that it's an expensive component, which makes 20 slot bags a bad deal for now, but I take issue with this assertion:

"...it takes at least a month of play to accumulate 10 gold..."

10 gold is about the average amount I accumulate after leveling one character from 1-80, along with all the associated costs of adventuring. I can get that done in a few days to a week if I seriously focus on it, and not "cheating" via crafting either. If I were to play more "normally", then it would take 2-3 weeks to level, which is still less than a month. Considering that average money gain increases exponentially as one levels up, I'm not sure how you could have trouble making that much money if you're actually playing a level 80 character in level 80 zones. When I log on to one of my 80s just to mess around for an hour or two, I make about a gold, and I'm not even farming or anything like that.

It's possible that our playstyles are different, resulting in a higher expense ratio for you. I haven't gotten around to writing my general guide to PvE yet, but these are some of the economical tips I were going to include:

1. Don't ever buy equipment from vendors, even karma ones. The probability of having new equipment/upgrades drop randomly is very high in Guild Wars 2, and if you absolutely need something immediately, there are plenty of suckers on the Trading Post selling at a loss - which is your gain.
2. As above, do your homework before using the Trading Post so that it earns/saves you money instead of draining it. Any time you get an item of Rare or Exotic quality that you don't need, chances are you can make a profit selling it on the Trading Post. Even some Fine and Masterwork items sell sometimes, if the skin is a rare one. There are also many crafting materials that fetch a tidy sum if you aren't going to be using them yourself.
3. You can use the "Travel to the Heart of the Mists" button in the PvP Menu to teleport for free back to Lion's Arch. It takes one additional trip compared to using a Waypoint directly, but it costs you no money and is faster to do than opening the World Map. I don't agree that Waypoint costs are unreasonably high, just that the formula should be calculated differently - but either way, this will save you a couple gold or so while leveling.
4. It is almost never necessary to upgrade your equipment, partly because of random drops, but mostly because the marginal costs of upgrades far outweigh the marginal gains. If there is content you're struggling to complete, like Personal Story missions, gaining a few levels makes a much greater difference than buying some upgrades (unless of course you're getting an entire set/moving up a quality tier, but that's a lot of money). The sole exception is if your weapons are like 10+ levels out of date (or whatever it is for the damage range to be -100ish), in which case you might consider replacing those with cheap Trading Post bargains.
5. Map completion, especially at mid to high levels, offers a substantial money reward in addition to the random gear (which itself often has value to yourself or the Trading Post). Some maps are faster to complete than others, of course, but if you have the time it's worth going for completion overall. Completing Renown Hearts is one of the fastest and easiest ways to quickly build income, anyway.
6. Dynamic Events are easy money, especially if you don't have to attempt them solo. Most events award a Gold level completion after you've only killed like 5 monsters (may need more if many, many people are participating); at the very least, though, a Bronze reward is better than no reward at all, so you lose nothing by "tagging" every event you come across, even if you don't stick around to finish them. (As long as you stay in the same zone, when the event finishes, you'll get your rewards.)
7. Avoid buying any Salvage Kits other than the Crude Salvage Kits until you're level 65-80 or so. None of the low-level upgrade components are worth the extra cost of trying to salvage them, and you can't start salvaging Globs of Ectoplasm before that level range anyway.
8. In addition to the previous, don't salvage any item that isn't specifically marked as a Salvage Item. The return rates are generally inferior to selling that junk equipment to the vendor.
9. Always carry a set or two of the highest level gathering tools everywhere you go, and gather any node that is in reasonable walking distance (say, half a radar or so at max zoom level). Gathering not only gives good experience, but also generates revenue in the form of materials and bonus loot drops (like Unidentified Dyes).
10. Don't bother to repair equipment until it's actually broken. Damaged equipment can be sold to the vendor for the same price as normal, and because random upgrades happen frequently, the chances of ever breaking something are pretty small.
11. Stop dying. This sounds obvious, but every time you meet an unnecessary death, that's lost money in the form of forced Waypoint travel, not to mention lost time. If you don't think you can win a fight, there is no harm in running away to save yourself; Guild Wars 2 content is designed around people dynamically running in and out of combat, so you shouldn't feel guilty about "abandoning the team" either (if the fight is so close that losing one person fails it, the group just sucks overall anyway). Mitigate damage by killing foes before they can hurt you; learn to kite and circle strafe, dodge often, and utilize defensive and healing skills. Pure "glass cannon" builds are fine as long as they can kill things before getting killed, but especially if you're new to a class, that probably won't happen for some time. Finally, dying to fall damage doesn't damage equipment, so if you know you're going to die, you should try to jump off a cliff (unless you think someone will resurrect you).

I could write more, but it's just simple tips and tricks like that. They add up over time and across characters. Vili 点 16:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't really be precise in my "month of play" sentence, because it's complicated. I never grind the same thing repetitively (hate tedium and repetition), so inevitably the month was spent doing zone completion of the 3 maps of Orr mixed in with lots of other miscellaneous activity. It's too messy to be quantitative, so I apologize for that, but I meant it in the rough ballpark sense. In other words, I can't make 10g in a few days despite the fact that pure grinding without teleporting would certainly net 10g in a weekend, because I don't play GW2 as a continuous grind in level 80 maps alone, and also because most of my cash goes on waypoints --- at over 3 silver per trip from Orr to human lands, it eats very rapidly into profits given the constraints of inventory space. (Which of course relates directly back to the expensive runes for bags issue, it's a chicken and egg situation.) Morgaine 23:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Scraping cash off my lower characters (I had all 8 professions in their 20's), my first level 80 managed to buy her Grandmaster traits book at the appropriate level of 60, but my second level 80 had to work her way an extra 5 levels before she could afford it at 65. This sort of gives you some idea of the scarcity of cash I've experienced, although I do accept that this is largely due to profligate use of waypoints. I don't think I'm doing wrong though. I think that they are just priced too high to reflect Anet's stated reason for adding waypoints to the game. It shouldn't cost a large amount of money to avoid travel tedium. Morgaine 23:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

That's an excellent writeup Vili!! I hope you post it on a private page of yours because I think it's worth giving people links to it, and I know I'd bookmark it for that purpose. As I've played GW2 rather intensively since launch, I worked out everything you mentioned myself except the "Travel to the Heart of the Mists" bit --- I haven't even seen the button because I'm 100% not a PvP person and haven't even brought up that window. I will try it shortly, and I certainly thank you for any money I can save that way!

As I wrote in another Feedback section, I use waypoints a huge amount and use them very often, and I believe that such use lies within the spirit that ArenaNet claims for them (to make play fun instead of needing tedious running). Unfortunately the pricing that they have attached to teleports acts against that stated purpose. I'm going to continue using them because I got used to free teleports in GW1 and I hate tedium, but I acknowledge that it is costing me very highly. So, thanks again for the "Travel to the Heart of the Mists" advice. Morgaine 22:16, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I didn't find a way to port to LA from the PvP screen while in the Heart of the Mists lobby. The "Leave the Mists" button just takes me back to the location from which I entered the place. It did occur to me that LA might appear somewhere on the PvP world map if I uncovered it, using some cute non-Euclidean trick of spacetime, but I'm not going to enter PvP to check that. I think you must have meant something else anyway. Morgaine 23:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

You, uh...run straight forwards into the gigantic Asura Gate standing in front of you when you enter Heart of the Mists. It sends you to Fort Mariner in Lion's Arch. Vili 点 23:52, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm in some kind of training place, there are NPC trainers with hearts here, but no asura gate, and this is an instance just like the My Story ones. And I feel pretty unwell just being here, thinking a PvP person might appear and engage. Very unlikely in an instance of course, but that doesn't make the bad feeling go away. :P Morgaine 00:04, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, you're in a training place. There's renown hearts there, so you should do them - they introduce you to the basics of PvP. And you're in an instance, just like the ones for your Personal Story, so you don't need to worry about any PKers jumping out of nowhere on you - they're in their own instances too. After doing the renown hearts, you move forward to the PvP Lobby, where you can queue up for sPvP and such or take the Asura Gate back to LA. 71.204.175.10 00:11, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not a personal instance - it's a shared instance with other players, but it's PvE-style - all player characters are on the same "team". —Dr Ishmael 00:25, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Postscript from that discussion --- I want to thank you Vili for the idea of travelling "home" via Heart of the Mists for free. It has worked out fine for me, after moving "home" from my favoured outpost to a city, otherwise I'd be saving money only part of the way back. I'm also using the LA asura gates to get closer to destination on outbound trips as well. My previously outrageous expenditure on waypoints has nearly vanished as a result, although they're inevitable when friends or guildies call for support. Anet still needs to reduce the costs by an order of magnitude or eliminate them completely to make the world fun and not poverty-inducing, but at least there's an alternative, albeit a bit less convenient. Thanks again! :-) Morgaine 01:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

"Price Superior Rune of Holding more reasonably " Of course people complain about the price of Sup Holding Runes -- it's meant to be extortionate. It acts as a gold sink for the richest 1% (since no one else can afford to blow 20g for +2 slots) and it encourages people to look for other ways to increase storage costs (all of which involve gems: new characters, new bank slots, new bag slots).

One thing that people don't get about the game's design is that ANet thought ahead to 2013 and beyond: the costs of WPs, repairs, and holding runes seemed high in Sept 2012, but the people who started playing then won't think so in Sep 2013. If gold sinks were "more reasonable" now, inflation would already be pricing new players out of the market for all sorts of things. 75.36.178.190 18:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I moved you out an indent level, 75.36.178.190 (a name would be nice), as it's more a top-level reply to me than a reply to Vili, and Vili's section was large so a reset seemed appropriate anyway.

Regarding gold sinks, there is a huge number of continuous gold sinks already in the game, and once-only purchases are relatively insignificant over time compared to the recurring ones. There is simply no need for this additional burden, it's lost in the noise compared to the recurring sinks. Indeed, I'm quite certain that I've paid what I'd liked to have spent on many Sup Runes of Holding in waypoint fees, lots of them in fact because I teleport a lot as I consider one particular spot "home" and return to it continually.

I do agree with you that it's pretty silly to pay an extra 8g for an extra 2 slots more than an 18-slot bag and so only the uber rich farmers etc are going to do so, but I think you're mixing cause and effect here. It's the other way around. Only the uber rich will buy them because they're extortionately priced, rather than the bags being extortionately priced so that only the uber rich will buy them. That would be a pretty silly thing for Anet to do, because bags are functional and so they should be available with relative ease to everyone. They're not just decorative/vanity items which are the traditional gold sink and hardcore time sink. Anet have always been clear about that, the GW franchise is for casual players as much as hardcore, and the hardcore are not advantaged in key functional elements.

Your paragraph about planning ahead to 2013 and beyond rests on the concept of these runes being gold sinks again, which I've already addressed as not really making sense versus recurring costs. Maybe they are trying to put a gold sink into everything, but if so then that is very poor design, and as much a management burden on them as a cash burden on players. Also, the gold sink strategy can't even work here without destroying the game, because farmers inject vastly more cash than normal players and so if you try to apply an effective sink to them then the entire world becomes unusable for everyone else. That takes us into a rather different topic, but just sticking to these specific runes, the 10g each really doesn't help anyone, not even ArenaNet. Morgaine 22:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Buying a new bag slot is like 5 times more cost efficient than buying a 20 slot bag, which is one of the more disproportionate values for gems for a having a dynamic market for gems.--Relyk 00:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't follow that. A new bag slot costs 400 gems, which is 6g35s at today's exchange rate, which is over 3 times as costly as an 18 slot rune and you still have to add some kind of bag to that cost. So, it looks the reverse to me, not 5 times more cost efficient than a 20-slot but instead almost as cost inefficient as a 20 slot. A better storage value is the extra bank slot, which for 600 gems costs 9g40s today, is of course shareable, and automatically contains an integral "30-slot bag". Of course that's as exorbitant a price as the 10g rune, but it's a lot more functional and bigger than a 20-slot bag. Morgaine 00:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but bank storage is only useful when you have access to the bank; it won't help you pick up more loot. In the starting areas and a select few of the later ones, there are crafting stations out in the wilderness that let you access the bank; you could also buy bank access consumables for an exorbiant price, or get super lucky and find a Personal Bank Access Express. Otherwise, for practical purposes (especially if you only play on 1-2 characters), a new bag slot adds more usefulness. Vili 点 21:25, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Although what you say is accurate, the bank slot can be used to achieve the same thing and more. A new empty bank slot can be filled with the long-term items from your inventory bags before you set out, and hence it allows you to pick up an extra 30 extra items of loot, so it's equivalent to a 30-slot personal bag. And of course you can take those items back after your character has finished for the day and another character can do the same instead, so in effect it's as good as a 30-slot bag on each character but with the disadvantage of needing a minute to deposit/withdraw everything from it on each character. That makes the 400 gems for a new bag slot look appallingly expensive compared to 600 gems for a new bank slot. I wouldn't pay even 200 gems for a bag slot unless I had all my bank slots filled. Maybe I'd pay 100 gems, but that's the max I'd even consider paying. Morgaine 08:05, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not talking about 18 bags slots, which isn't the topic of the section either.--Relyk 09:42, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

So ignore the reference to 18-slot bags, that was just supplementary. A new bag slot costs 400 gems, which is 2/3 of the 600 gem cost of a bank slot, which at today's exchange rate costs 10g54s (Anet has totally lost control of inflation) which is more than the cost of the rune, Since the bank slot's virtual "30-slot bag" is 3/2 as good as a 20-slot and serves at least 5 characters rather than just one, the situation is the exact reverse of what you claim. For just slightly more than 10g, you're getting (5*3/2) or 7.5 times the effective storage capacity of a 20-slot bag. That makes the Superior Rune of Holding for a 20-slot bag appalling value at 10g. Morgaine 11:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to the cost of a 20-slot bag compared to using an 18-slot bag then buying a new bag slot and sticking an 18 bag slot in it. You gain 36 slots for 10  98  52  approximately compared to 20 slots for 10 . The "5 times" was hyperbole, wasn't meant to be literal.--Relyk 11:38, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

First you say "I'm not talking about 18 bags slots, which isn't the topic of the section either", and now you answer with a comparison using 18-slot bags. You're seriously confusing, you know? :P OK, so let's talk about 18-slot bags again.

Because you mention "36", I assume you mean two 18-slot bags to give a capacity of 36. Fine, but that requires two bag slots and two 18-slot runes versus the one slot required for a 20-slot bag and one 20-slot rune. One bag slot plus a 20-slot rune costs (400 gems = 6g66s at the exchange rate right now) + 10g = 16g66s. Two bag slots + two 18-slot runes cost 2*6g66s + 2*2g = 17g32s. So, you're quite right that they're roughly in the same ballpark for cost (less than 1g difference), but 36 slots is a lot better than 20 so it's a good deal.

This entirely proves my point though, which is that the 10g rune is ridiculously overpriced. Since it provides only 11% more storage than an 18-slot rune, it shouldn't cost 400% as much. Charging a small extra premium is not unreasonable, but it needs to be proportionate, otherwise it's just price gouging. Bags aren't vanity items for the over-rich, they're functional. Morgaine 13:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) blargh

1. You have an empty bag slot and either fill it with 18-slot or 20 slot bag.
2. The rest of the bag slots filled with 18 slot bags, buying an 18-slot bag slot is cheaper per item slot than buying two 16-slot bag and a bag slot.
3. I'm using the gem value from gwspidey: 1  63  55 

18-slot bags	20-slot bags	Bag slots purchased	Total slots	Total Cost	Cost per item slot
1	0	0	18	2  0  0	11  11
0	1	0	20	10  0  0	50  0
2	0	1	36	10  54  20	29  28
1	1	1	38	18  54  20	48  79
3	0	2	54	19  8  40	35  34
2	1	2	56	27  8  40	48  36
4	0	3	72	27  62  60	38  36

Gems would have to be around 3  50  before players would start buying a 20 slot pack to fill their last bag slot. It should be the other way around, where buying larger bags should be cheap and buying bag slots should be expensive in terms of coin. This discourages people from buying gems to sell and afford 20-slot bags, instead they're buying expansion slots and 18-slot bags to fill them. I'd like to see a price for superior runes that makes buying gems advantageous or at least close to it for people who want more slots.--Relyk 16:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)