User:Dr ishmael/IRC wikichat 20120613a

This is the log for the scheduled wikichat that occurred on June 13, 2012, at 10 AM PDT. All participants were notified of the logging and that the log would be posted here under the GFDL.

GW1W segment

17:01:55: <stephane> ok
17:02:04: <stephane> starting the speech now
17:02:21: <stephane> Hi everyone, let's now start this first WikiChat. Let me first thank you all for participating. I'd like to share some basic rules that we should follow during this WikiChat.
17:02:26: <stephane> Rule #0: Be aware that this chat is logged and will be made available on the wikis under a GFDL license.
17:02:31: <stephane> Rule #1: Keep in mind this WikiChat is about the wiki, not GW2 (betas, launch date, etc.)
17:02:36: <stephane> Rule #2: First 30 minutes are for the Guild Wars Wiki, last 30 minutes for the the Guild Wars 2 Wiki.
17:02:41: <stephane> Rule #3: I'll start and close a topic to discuss, we should each time focus on the topic that was started (follow-up discussions can be created on the wiki).
17:02:48: <stephane> Rule #4: Keep your questions and comments concise (short and to the point), as we only have very limited time and unnecessary comments will simply make the chat less readable.
17:02:54: <stephane> Rule #5: Be civil, I'll ban disruptive behaviour from the channel.
17:03:10: <stephane> END OF RULES (for the moment)

Administrative requests

17:03:26: <stephane> START ITEM1: Status of administrative requests
17:03:37: <stephane> I'd like to update you on what's going on here
17:04:01: <stephane> Basically we're working on a big update of our English wiki software environments
17:04:29: <stephane> The latest version of MediaWiki (1.19) is causing more work than anticipated
17:04:43: <stephane> because it requires updates at a system level
17:05:03: <stephane> and we want to wrap all important requests with this, notably Semantic MediaWiki extension
17:05:18: <stephane> and test all of that, which takes even more time
17:05:26: <stephane> Anyone has questions?
17:05:48: <aspectacle> Is there an eta on the upgrade?
17:06:06: <stephane> nope, impossible to get an ETA given the technical complexity of the operation
17:06:15: <aspectacle> okay
17:06:17: <stephane> including testing
17:06:17: <MithranArkanere> Will it include the "Did you mean...?" feature?
17:06:28: <stephane> I'm not aware of this feature request Mithran
17:06:38: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> should we try to give you a testing regimen for things like SMW?
17:06:41: <dr_ishmael> i think that's part of the Lucen-search
17:06:47: <dr_ishmael> *Lucene
17:06:50: <PLing> i think that's a search-related thing, MithranArkanere, not inherently MW
17:07:07: <stephane> Jon: yes that would be most useful!
17:07:36: <stephane> (actually about SMW, it seems very complex and I imagine that we'll have to discuss configuring it, the FR and DE wikis also serve as a testing ground)
17:07:49: <MithranArkanere> I don't know if it's part of mediawiki or is added as a plugin. I just know that it's a very useful thing to hae, specially when there might be users from different languages.
17:08:03: <PLing> http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:Requests_for_technical_administration/MWSearch <--- it's been requested though
17:08:17: <stephane> Ishmael: is it? I retrograded this feature request to "we're thinking about it" because changing the search engine is even more complex than upgrading the MW software
17:08:52: <stephane> ok I see, thanks for the clarification
17:09:05: <stephane> basically search engine requires a lot of thinking from our tech teams about backend setup
17:09:51: <PLing> we've requested a similar extension before but it was rejected for being too complex, but another similar thing (MWSearch) came up and we requested that
17:10:21: <MithranArkanere> Sometimes something like google search results option does the trick.
17:10:37: <stephane> yup we saw that but when I discussed it with our tech team, this was under investigation and the upgrade to MW means that it'll have to be evaluated again
17:11:28: <Infinite> I doubt that will happen, to be honest. MWSearch is a more beneficial alternative, despite the work (from what I can read).
17:11:33: <PLing> (no wait, scratch that, i don't think the old one was rejected, but it was made obsolete (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki_talk:Requests_for_technical_administration/LuceneSearch))
17:11:44: <stephane> google search was also on the list and not that easy, but again MW1.19 may change that
17:12:02: <dr_ishmael> MWSearch uses LuceneSearch as the backend - so it's the same thing
17:12:21: <stephane> FYI we're not also super happy with the current search engine but it would be pointless to do something about it before upgrading the MW soft
17:12:57: <stephane> ok any follow up on that topic?
17:13:01: <Infinite> The current engine gets the job done, which is ultimately what we'll need.
17:13:26: <stephane> yes it's suboptimal but I wanted to let you know that it's on our list
17:13:36: <Infinite> Yes, sorry, I know. :P
17:13:43: <stephane> ok so I'll end this topic
17:13:44: <stephane> END ITEM1: Status of administrative requests

Legal questions

17:13:51: <stephane> START ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked
17:14:05: <stephane> I clarified a few questions on the GW wiki
17:14:14: <stephane> and wanted to make sure that there's no follow up question on that
17:14:30: <stephane> so if you have a question, shoot now ^^
17:14:40: <stephane> (wow everyone is super well behaved, thanks! :P)
17:14:51: <Infinite> (Don't get them started.)
17:15:00: <Rudhraighe> GriN
17:15:04: <MithranArkanere> (We are GW players, after all)
17:15:06: <stephane> the biggest change will be the text under the Edit window
17:15:15: <stephane> we're not changing the content but the form
17:15:28: <stephane> to point to the existing wiki page and make the message consistent accross all wikis
17:15:47: <stephane> then we changed one tiny detail about the license (about commercial guides)
17:16:00: <stephane> and I clarified that it does not change what was already done on the GW wiki
17:16:18: <stephane> and finally interlinking wikis
17:16:27: <stephane> which is a much hotter topic for GW2W
17:16:53: <stephane> oh by the way you may see me mention things like GWW GW2W.EN GW2W.FR GW2W.DE
17:17:01: <stephane> codenames for all wikis
17:17:14: <stephane> I'll give this topic another 30s
17:17:22: <stephane> if no question I'll close ^^
17:17:32: <MithranArkanere> Are there any plands for a GW2W.ES?
17:17:34: <Infinite> Then I'll opt a question; can we see a preview anywhere?
17:17:37: <stephane> (imagines everyone thinking hard)
17:17:45: <stephane> yes Mithran I'm working on GW2W.ES
17:17:54: <Tilion> Hello
17:18:00: <stephane> Infinite: preview of what?
17:18:13: <Infinite> Of the planned changes to the format.
17:18:16: <Dutch> Hey all
17:18:38: <stephane> sure I'll make a note of that but it'll basically be the text from the GWW with a link to the license document
17:18:51: <stephane> the text of other wikis will be more affected
17:18:55: <Infinite> I see, okay.
17:18:57: <stephane> since they're out of sync
17:19:00: <MithranArkanere> Will thank 'link' warn the user making new articles in GW2W about articles with the same name in GWW, so they can take that into consideration and maybe edit both to link any relations?
17:19:27: <stephane> eh I don't think so Mithran
17:19:45: <stephane> if this is a feature that is desirable it should be investigated and requested
17:20:07: <stephane> oh by the way the new text under the edit window will mention GW and GW2
17:20:14: <PLing> that's something people do on their own easily enough atm
17:20:17: <stephane> since we're getting content from both on both wikis
17:20:48: <stephane> yes I agree with Pling, it seems an unnecessary feature (although I like the idea of bridging the gap between the 2 wikis)
17:21:03: <stephane> ok moving on, we have 9 minutes left
17:21:09: <stephane> END ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked

Mobile version

17:21:20: <stephane> START ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis
17:21:35: <stephane> I think that came from GW2W.EN
17:21:45: <stephane> but wanted to ask people here if they thought it's a valuable idea
17:21:56: <stephane> wikis can already be seen on mobile/smart phones
17:22:09: <stephane> do you think it's something we should make even easier?
17:22:21: <stephane> do YOU watch the wikis on mobile/smart phones?
17:22:21: <Infinite> They can, but not optimal depending on the phone.
17:22:23: <Binary_llama> Half the time when I go to a wiki with a mobile version I have to drop out to the main version to catch details I can't find
17:22:24: <MithranArkanere> Hm... I see that more useful for pads, not for mobiles. Since you are more likely to search while playing. I can't see the need for a different version for a pad, since they already have big screens.
17:22:40: <stephane> I'm basically asking anyone interested to say "YES" :)
17:22:45: <MithranArkanere> And a user will rather alt-tab than use a phone to search.
17:22:48: <Rudhraighe> extremely if GW2 is going to last over 7 years phone technology will elvolve to the point mobile data will be in higher demend
17:22:51: <stephane> I want to see how popular this request is
17:23:00: <shew> But what about the Guild Wars 2 Extended Experience's wiki integration. What abilities will players have with regards to wiki content, if any?
17:23:01: <Infinite> As an avid wiki editor via smartphone, I say yes (regardless of my screen's resolution).
17:23:09: <Dutch> It could help with the processing as well as the cost on the client-side of the wiki. I know some people definitely prefer a mobile version as I've got messages from people telling me they love that our site has a mobile version
17:23:18: <stephane> Rudhraige: I can't see what the future is made of but yes it's also something I keep in mind
17:23:27: <Tilion> I'm just accessing the wikis through desktops.
17:23:31: <Dutch> Oh, erm. Yes.
17:23:32: <stephane> Shew: this is another question (of course related)
17:23:35: <Infinite> (As the same editor, I must stress that the current wiki loads slowly on smartphones.)
17:24:03: <stephane> I'm fully aware that this very topic opens much more discussions
17:24:04: <zeeZ> I phone to it on occasion too
17:24:10: <stephane> and I don't want us to solve it here
17:24:26: <Infinite> I'm aware, but it should be noted either way, I feel.
17:24:33: <stephane> if that feature was made availalb,e, would you use it? would it depend on how it's implemented?
17:24:56: <stephane> (ooops my typos will be recorded, please edit :P)
17:25:02: <TashaDarke> I think until data proves that it would be worthwhile doing, energy would be better spent elsewhere. It's not something I would definately use for example.
17:25:03: <stephane> (and edit that too)
17:25:39: <Dutch> Yes. I would use it. It would definitely matter how it's implemented as well. Although like Tasha mentions, if energy is needed elsewhere, this can wait.
17:25:40: <Rudhraighe> especially with the app for the auction house ppl will want to look up items and stats as well as recipes
17:25:40: <Tanetris> (Nope, gonna throw {{sic}}s all over the place :p)
17:25:42: <stephane> I've got some data and it's not super popular but a few players read the GW wiki on mobile / smart phones
17:25:43: <Infinite> It would require view and edit features, as well as (possibly) admin tools being avialable. It doesn't need anything super fancy such as image uploads.
17:25:46: <Binary_llama> The implementation would really matter, if the mobile version is poorly done it would be better to not have it
17:25:46: <Tilion> +1 to Tasha's opinion
17:25:48: <Dagoh> I agree with Tasha here, I've never used wiki in a phone.
17:26:07: <Xeeron> If there is a simple technical solution to making the wiki avaible on mobile devices, yes. If it would require manual input in (potentially) each page, no, that energy is better spend elsewhere
17:26:10: <Infinite> (Please just sic mine.)
17:26:18: <stephane> of course the priority of this feature would not be higher than things like upgrading MW or search engine
17:26:28: <stephane> I think I had enough feedback
17:26:37: <Infinite> The priority can't be high for this.
17:26:40: <stephane> I'll close this and open the floor for questions
17:26:45: <stephane> END ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis

Additional discussion

17:26:48: <stephane> so any other topics?
17:26:50: <stephane> questions?
17:26:52: <stephane> comments?
17:26:59: <dr_ishmael> cries of anguish?
17:26:59: <stephane> you've got about 3 minutes ^^
17:27:16: <MithranArkanere> What are the plans in in-game integration?
17:27:28: <MithranArkanere> Will it get a panel or something more like GWW has?
17:27:30: <stephane> ok so we're on the GWW discussion here :)
17:27:42: <stephane> that's for the next 30 minutes
17:28:36: <Infinite> First off, some sucking up. Thanks for organising this meeting. And whether I slept through items 3 and 4, or if those are planned for the other half hour.
17:28:36: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> kinda going back to the interwiki thing, do we want to have tighter connections between the different language wikis, or are we going to pretty much leave it alone?
17:28:55: <stephane> for GWW?
17:29:08: <stephane> (no worries Infinite)
17:29:15: <MithranArkanere> Oh. I remember another one. I assume there will enver be plans for different languages in GWW too.
17:29:26: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> yeah, for GWW
17:29:39: <stephane> that's not currently under consideration no, the GWW is a much larger beast
17:29:49: <MithranArkanere> The panel inside the game still says beta and limited to English.
17:29:51: <Tilion> Have we already discussed about the fan site list?
17:30:07: <Dagoh> Next half hour tilion :)
17:30:11: <MithranArkanere> That was a long beta, I think. Either it stays in English or loses beta or goes on with iterations.
17:30:11: <stephane> no Tilion, coming soon
17:30:24: <Tilion> ok. Thank you both.
17:30:27: <stephane> I'll mention the beta tag to our devs :)
17:30:35: <Infinite> Besides (and I don't mean this disrespectfully), the GWW has run in English without much problems regarding other languages for a long time now. The demand of official GWWs in other languages can't be that major.
17:30:52: <Infinite> been running* / ran*
17:31:04: <Infinite> many*(etc)
17:31:07: <dr_ishmael> Infinite: i think it used to be, years ago, but it isn't anymore
17:31:07: <stephane> I know the German one is pretty big and the 2 French ones went slowly into oblivion
17:31:21: <stephane> ok we're out of time
17:31:30: <stephane> time to start the same discussion for GW2W.EN
17:31:59: <stephane> I'll remind everyone of the rules (sorry for the spam)
17:31:59: <dr_ishmael> might want to restate the rules for people who joined late
17:32:06: <stephane> ^^

GW2W segment

17:32:11: <stephane> Rule #0: Be aware that this chat is logged and will be made available on the wikis under a GFDL license.
17:32:12: <dr_ishmael> :D
17:32:16: <stephane> Rule #1: Keep in mind this WikiChat is about the wiki, not GW2 (betas, launch date, etc.)
17:32:18: <stephane> Rule #2: First 30 minutes are for the Guild Wars Wiki, last 30 minutes for the the Guild Wars 2 Wiki.
17:32:23: <stephane> Rule #3: I'll start and close a topic to discuss, we should each time focus on the topic that was started (follow-up discussions can be created on the wiki).
17:32:27: <stephane> Rule #4: Keep your questions and comments concise (short and to the point), as we only have very limited time and unnecessary comments will simply make the chat less readable.
17:32:31: <stephane> Rule #5: Be civil, I'll ban disruptive behaviour from the channel.
17:32:34: <stephane> END OF RULES (for the moment)
17:32:55: <stephane> sorry for those that already attented the first part of the discussion
17:33:04: <stephane> I'll also report what I said about the topic #1

Administrative requests

17:33:09: <stephane> START ITEM1: Status of administrative requests
17:33:14: <stephane> I'd like to update you on what's going on here
17:33:18: <stephane> Basically we're working on a big update of our English wiki software environments
17:33:22: <stephane> The latest version of MediaWiki (1.19) is causing more work than anticipated
17:33:25: <stephane> because it requires updates at a system level
17:33:30: <stephane> and we want to wrap all important requests with this, notably Semantic MediaWiki extension
17:33:36: <stephane> and test all of that, which takes even more time
17:33:40: <stephane> Anyone has questions?
17:33:45: <stephane> (new questions? :P)
17:34:02: <Infinite> Yes, one.
17:34:05: <stephane> yes?
17:34:40: <Infinite> Will the amount of work possibly cause your team to revise your decisions and therefore no longer meet the request?
17:34:58: <stephane> revise which decision?
17:35:08: <Infinite> To implement it altogether.
17:35:27: <stephane> it's always a possibility but not a big one at this point
17:35:34: <stephane> the thinking is that an update has to be done
17:35:45: <Tanetris> Any status on "Guild Wars 2 Wiki error" bug?
17:35:47: <stephane> so we'd rather make a big one to be in a good shape
17:35:48: <Rudhraighe> is there anything the community can do to aid the process
17:36:00: <Infinite> I ask because of the user-friendliness Semantic offers (notably Forms).
17:36:05: <stephane> Tanetris: no, I asked again at the end of last week and no news
17:36:22: <stephane> Rudhraighe: unfortunately not
17:36:42: <stephane> Infinite: I'm fully aware of that and would really like the English wikis to get SMW asap
17:37:11: <stephane> any more questions?
17:37:18: <dr_ishmael> if you were to set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true, we could at least see what the error is and report it
17:37:31: <stephane> we're aware :)
17:37:36: <dr_ishmael> as it is, we only see "There's something wrong"
17:37:42: <stephane> I know
17:37:49: <stephane> that's under discussion by the tech team
17:37:55: <dr_ishmael> ok
17:37:56: <Tanetris> iirc from the MediaWiki page on it, it potentially exposes sensitive info though
17:38:10: <Alfa-R> it's funny, but I'm not getting the pesky error at my home PC anymore, but at work it is like the only thing I can access
17:38:33: <stephane> if you have any information about when this bug happens, please share on the Bugs page
17:38:43: <stephane> so far it seems tricky to catch
17:38:46: <stephane> and a bit random
17:38:53: <stephane> ok I'll close this topic now
17:38:56: <Tanetris> It's utterly random, as far as any of us have been able to tell
17:39:00: <stephane> END ITEM1: Status of administrative requests

Legal questions

17:39:07: <stephane> START ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked
17:39:32: <stephane> I clarified a few questions on the GW and GW2 wikis
17:39:37: <stephane> and wanted to make sure that there's no follow up question on that
17:39:42: <stephane> so if you have a question, shoot now ^^
17:39:58: <stephane> the biggest change will be the text under the Edit window
17:40:02: <stephane> we're not changing the content but the form
17:40:06: <stephane> to point to the existing wiki page and make the message consistent accross all wikis
17:40:11: <stephane> then we changed one tiny detail about the license (about commercial guides)
17:40:14: <stephane> and I clarified that it does not change what was already done on the GW wiki
17:40:18: <stephane> and finally interlinking wikis
17:40:35: <stephane> questions? comments?
17:41:00: <stephane> I'll give this topic another 30s
17:41:05: <stephane> if no question I'll close ^^
17:41:06: <Infinite> Was there an actual objection to having a link to the Unofficial wikis in the navigation?
17:41:13: <dr_ishmael> so setting up interlanguage links to non-official wikis is out, right?
17:41:15: <Infinite> As in, the list.
17:41:22: <Dutch> Well one question: Are there any objections of using Wiki materials on other sites?
17:41:36: <stephane> yes we were not big supporters of that
17:41:51: <Infinite> To all three points?
17:41:55: <stephane> Dutch: that's not the topic of this WikiChat I think
17:42:05: <stephane> (I think wiki license answers your question)
17:42:15: <dr_ishmael> Dutch: you can do so under the terms of the GFDL
17:42:15: <Dutch> Alright, my appologies.
17:42:16: <stephane> what 3 points Infinite?
17:42:23: <stephane> (no worries Dutch)
17:42:34: <Infinite> (Just the three questions, mine, Ishmael's, and Dutch.)
17:42:40: <stephane> ah ok
17:42:50: <stephane> well I explained our reasoning about this
17:43:04: <stephane> as official wikis are the only ones where we feel we have "language support"
17:43:11: <stephane> and a close relationship
17:43:28: <stephane> but a link to the page listing "Other wikis" would be ok I guess
17:43:33: <Infinite> So the link "Other languages" in the navigation, which leads to "List of non-English wikis" is okay, gotcha.
17:43:44: <stephane> (not sure If I actually confused 2 parts of the discussion on the wiki)
17:44:17: <dr_ishmael> but having links to Portuguese or Chinese in the "other languages" links section is not okay
17:44:18: <stephane> my understanding is that interwiki (via the InterWiki extension) will happen for EN, FR and DE
17:44:25: <Infinite> Correct.
17:44:27: <dr_ishmael> just wanted confirmation on that, thanks
17:44:29: <Infinite> And ES in time,.
17:44:44: <stephane> sorry for the confusion Ishmael: the "Other wikis" link would direct on a page that would list these unoffcial wikis
17:44:50: <stephane> and ES in time yes indeed
17:45:31: <stephane> I also expressed an interest in having a more explicit warning on this "Other wikis" page, to explain to users that they're quite different from the official ones
17:45:44: <stephane> ok 15 minutes left
17:45:48: <stephane> any other hot question?
17:46:02: <Infinite> Did you have any examples of this notice at hand, or shall we do our part there?
17:46:04: <Rudhraighe> ie you are leaving the official zone at your own risk
17:46:24: <stephane> Infinite: no I didn't, we can discuss the details on this page
17:46:35: <stephane> yes something like that Rudhraighe but a bit more friendly ^^
17:46:40: <stephane> END ITEM2: About the few legal questions that were asked

Interface redesign

17:46:46: <stephane> START ITEM3: GW2 Wiki interface redesign
17:46:56: <stephane> so first congratulations on that very nice redesign
17:47:05: <stephane> Infinite told me that Alfa-R did a lot on this?
17:47:11: <Alfa-R> ty
17:47:13: <Infinite> That is correct.
17:47:23: <stephane> now are people happy with this?
17:47:32: <Dagoh> It looks great
17:47:33: <dr_ishmael> mostly
17:47:34: <stephane> and I know that it may be tricky since the creators are here
17:47:37: <Infinite> There is an exceptional amount of feedback.
17:47:40: <Xeeron> thumbs up
17:47:44: <stephane> nice
17:47:47: <shew> It looks very nice.
17:47:52: <Dutch> Two new awesome designs within such a short period can only be complimented! I like the current one for sure :).
17:47:53: <MithranArkanere> I don't care much about the aesthetics, as long as it's easy to use.
17:47:59: <Alfa-R> I think the only thing that raises objection now is the main page
17:48:08: <Tilion> It's really pretty gj
17:48:10: <stephane> great, I'm personnally super happy that people are happy in this new wiki home :)
17:48:13: <aspectacle> It's great. ;D
17:48:17: <dr_ishmael> a lot of people don't like the EasonPro font for headers
17:48:19: <Alfa-R> which Im trying to redo now
17:48:27: <stephane> Alfa-R: what kind of obejction?
17:48:43: <stephane> FYI I've had several people here at the studio telling me the welcome page looks nice ^^
17:48:51: <Alfa-R> The enclosure of many elements
17:48:57: <stephane> ah ok I see
17:49:05: <stephane> I see that more like a refinement
17:49:12: <Alfa-R> like, content sheet, which has images, which have table in them, etc
17:49:25: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> I like a little more color for the main page, but the design is very good.
17:49:26: <PLing> ah, do you have any problems with the white arenanet logo in the footer, stephane, or is that fine?
17:49:40: <stephane> ah I just noticed
17:49:51: <MithranArkanere> I like how the decorations disappear if there's not enough room.
17:49:52: <stephane> could it be back in red or was this considered too visible?
17:49:57: <Infinite> I feel that the objection sooner comes from users with smaller resolutions, where the design doesn't work as well. On even smaller resolutions it does, though.
17:50:04: <stephane> (also it looks like this chat will end after the hour)
17:50:13: <Infinite> Well, it works, it's just less pretty (arguably).
17:50:20: <Alfa-R> it was a very bright spot at the bottom IMO, that drawed a lot of attention
17:50:36: <stephane> we'd like that actually Alfa-R
17:50:44: <stephane> I think it's discreet enough that it's at the bottom
17:50:54: <Rudhraighe> it should draw attention ;)
17:50:54: <stephane> it givces a nice "official" touch, like a stamp :P
17:51:14: <PLing> the mediawiki (and soon SMW) logos are bright enough - i think the red anet logo would be fine there, too
17:51:16: <Alfa-R> that's easy to revert
17:51:26: <stephane> great
17:51:27: <dr_ishmael> i think it's small enough, and at the bottom, that it's something people should get used to fairly quickly, and then it won't bother as much
17:51:28: <Dutch> I don't think it should distract too much, and it also makes it a little bit more official indeed.
17:51:43: <Infinite> The original ArenaNet logo (with transparent background) has my support.
17:51:50: <Infinite> The white doesn't stand out.
17:51:52: <Alfa-R> @Dutch forums use white logo instead
17:51:53: <PLing> and true, it *should* be somewhat attention-drawing to show it's official
17:51:59: <stephane> we can always have follow up discussion about this on the wiki
17:52:05: <stephane> but it looks easy enough
17:52:20: <stephane> so to conclude this topic: a big Bravo from ArenaNet to the wiki comunity about this
17:52:29: <stephane> END ITEM3: GW2 Wiki interface redesign
17:52:32: <Infinite> I feel it should be forwarded to Alfa.
17:52:34: <^SaM^> well, what about the german and french frontpages? will they be also redesigned?
17:52:46: <Alfa-R> i have one more question
17:53:07: <PLing> ^SaM^, i think that's up to those specific communities
17:53:12: <stephane> Sam: this WikiChat is for English and GW2W.FR/DE are their own wikis, we're not going to ask them to but if they do it'll be great :)
17:53:16: <stephane> yes Alfa-R?
17:53:33: <^SaM^> okay, thanks
17:53:36: <Alfa-R> can I somehow get a few unique concept arts for wiki to use in main page design?
17:53:38: <stephane> you're welcome
17:53:56: <stephane> that'll be tricky but I'll ask
17:54:00: <Alfa-R> like icons and such
17:54:13: <stephane> oh btw
17:54:27: <stephane> I'm going to circulate to a few GW2W players skill icons
17:54:39: <stephane> directly from our graphic designers
17:54:51: <stephane> ok we're late

List of fansites

17:54:57: <stephane> START ITEM4: List of fansites
17:55:08: <stephane> I noticed that the wiki policy has changed on that
17:55:17: <stephane> and the list ended up being super short
17:55:31: <Infinite> (We're working on that.)
17:55:35: <stephane> it's actually something that the community team discussed a while ago and we'd like to share an idea
17:55:40: <stephane> of I shall say a request
17:55:55: <stephane> we'd like to have a much more complete list of fansites that we'd link from our webpage
17:56:10: <stephane> but I understand that this page caused a lot of trouble to the wiki?
17:56:27: <Dutch> I think that the big complete list got a bit too overwelming in the end.
17:56:29: <zeeZ> I sort of started that, because the list became super long and cluttered. Most of the sites were guild pages, forums, or even multi-game guilds that I don't regard as "fansites" noteworthy enough to be included in such a list
17:56:30: <stephane> so I'd like to propose to create a project to discuss the feasability of this
17:56:40: <shew> and blogs
17:56:42: <Infinite> Yes. The liberty to add a fansite at a whim caused the list to be bloated, whilst old additions died out.
17:56:47: <aspectacle> We've had trouble maintaining user content in the past on GWW, Stephane. We don't want to take on something that can't be kept current
17:57:05: <stephane> yes we'd have to discuss in this project how to format this (categories) and restrict edition of the page
17:57:11: <Infinite> For the same reasons we're still stuck on the guild documentation.
17:57:16: <dr_ishmael> the difficulty is in figuring out how to decide whether a site is "notable" enough to be included, and how to maintain the list to remove sites that are no longer notable
17:57:19: <stephane> guilds are different
17:57:31: <Infinite> I'm aware, so we're not here to talk about that.
17:57:43: <Tilion> no guilds, that's a must.
17:57:54: <Rudhraighe> ?
17:58:02: <stephane> Ishmael: I understand the problem from your perspective but in our (community team) opinion we don't want people to make that distinction, not necessarily at least
17:58:15: <stephane> is this a project idea that people are willing to discuss with me?
17:58:24: <Infinite> Always willing.
17:58:27: <shew> absolutely
17:58:32: <stephane> it would be a step back from what was done
17:58:32: <dr_ishmael> of course
17:58:32: <Rudhraighe> yes
17:58:38: <stephane> that's why I wanted to mention it here
17:58:39: <Dutch> I'd love to give my insights on that as well.
17:58:39: <MithranArkanere> Even if the users have the responsability on keeping their entries, the adminsitrators still have to check on the ones that are discontinued. Any system easing that would help.
17:58:47: <Dagoh> yes I would too
17:58:49: <stephane> I also think that it'd get more players used to the wikis
17:58:59: <TashaDarke> I think you may find the some people from the fansites may be interested in assisting or joining the wiki crew to make sure this is policied and actioned to be best result for everyone
17:59:09: <Tilion> Agreed
17:59:24: <Rudhraighe> enlightened self interest?
17:59:24: <stephane> the wiki being a collaborative space, it'd be (if we can set it up appropriately) much better than us maintaining it
17:59:47: <stephane> well Tasha I think that's definitely a point you should bring to the discussion
18:00:03: <stephane> I'll aslo be clear: I consider this a difficult topic
18:00:04: <Infinite> If it can be maintained by the whole community, and as long as that is the case, there should be no problems.
18:00:14: <Dagoh> Well, communities are already communicating with each other
18:00:14: <stephane> but one where I want to help directly
18:00:19: <TashaDarke> I disagree Rudhraighe, no one benefits from a long poorly maintained list, or a very short one either
18:00:22: <Infinite> If the community can't manage it, we'll have to trim it again.
18:00:24: <stephane> yes they are Dagoh
18:00:41: <stephane> ok so we'll start this on the wiki
18:00:48: <Tilion> Fan Sites are getting along rather well with each other
18:00:56: <stephane> and manage this properly, wiki-fashion
18:01:06: <stephane> thanks
18:01:11: <stephane> END ITEM4: List of fansites
18:01:15: <PLing> it sounds a little guildspace-like (e.g. people wanting their fansites on the list, not conforming to wiki standards, vested interests, some baww'ing)
18:01:32: <stephane> yup Pling I know what you're talking about
18:01:44: <Dutch> You'll need to be careful that the sites involved don't act partial as well.
18:01:45: <stephane> we'll discuss this in detail on the wiki
18:01:58: <stephane> this is not something that can be fully discussed in a chat
18:02:04: <PLing> yup
18:02:05: <stephane> indeed Dutch
18:02:14: <Infinite> Nor should we want it to be discussed here.
18:02:16: <stephane> as a Community Manager, I'm fully aware of the many facets of this
18:02:22: <stephane> indeed

Mobile version

18:02:29: <stephane> START ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis
18:02:52: <stephane> I wanted to ask people here if they thought it's a valuable idea
18:02:58: <stephane> wikis can already be seen on mobile/smart phones
18:03:01: <stephane> do you think it's something we should make even easier?
18:03:03: <Rudhraighe> absolutely
18:03:04: <PLing> tweet from poke: "Also my opinion on mobile version: Adjust CSS for mobile, don't use a wiki extension."
18:03:06: <Infinite> Especially for GW2W, yes.
18:03:06: <stephane> do YOU watch the wikis on mobile/smart phones?
18:03:15: <shew> I think that would be dependent upon how the extended experience handles wiki integration.
18:03:16: <stephane> good point from poke
18:03:27: <Dutch> I believe the things discussed during the GWW discussion can be copy pasted here.
18:03:43: <stephane> Shew: yes I agree, implementation is key
18:03:48: <Alfa-R> there is a lot of work with css, actually
18:03:51: <FASC|JonTheMon_work> I think a mobile version should be evaluated on cost/benefit, where cost involved initial setup and maintenance and benefit is how useable it is
18:03:56: <stephane> no Dutch I won't do that :P
18:04:13: <Dagoh> And I think there will be a little difference in GWW and GW2W
18:04:15: <dr_ishmael> (I don't think Dutch meant literal copy/pasting)
18:04:16: <stephane> Jon: that's definitely something that I'll do but part of "benefit" is to evaluate the demand for it
18:04:18: <zeeZ> while a CSS mobile version would make it look and read better, loading times and traffic would still be a thing
18:04:24: <Infinite> The only big difference between GWW and GW2W is the amount of elements to load on mobile.
18:04:27: <Dagoh> GW2W will be more commonly used many years from now
18:04:34: <Alfa-R> zeeZ made a good point
18:04:38: <MithranArkanere> Won't a different template solve that?
18:04:43: <stephane> (yes I know Ishmael but I'll let people chose how this discussion goes)
18:05:06: <stephane> yup good point zeeZ but I don't want to talk technical here
18:05:15: <stephane> I think it's part of the cost/benefit point
18:05:16: <shew> If I had an iPad, I'd be accessing the wiki on it.
18:05:17: <Dutch> I was actually not trying to close the discussion, just stating that the sentiments of that discussion probably also apply here as well. ;)
18:05:35: <stephane> (yup Dutch no worries)
18:05:40: <Infinite> The answers can be recapped as a yes.
18:05:41: <MithranArkanere> I think that the most important points is how much and how it would be used.
18:05:44: <Alfa-R> @shew im using iPad, it shows regular site, rather than mobile, so no problem there
18:05:54: <Dutch> * yes, but not with priority.
18:05:57: <stephane> oki dokie
18:06:01: <shew> ah, gotcha.
18:06:07: <Rudhraighe> the issue with mobile access it getting the information across with minimal bandwidth
18:06:08: <Infinite> Yes, nice catch.
18:06:15: <aspectacle> I have an android tab, but the normal site looks ok. I'd like to be able to not use a mobile css if it is provided.
18:06:18: <stephane> just so you know, at this point I don't see a big reason for going there, not until other priorities are addressed first
18:06:34: <Dutch> Alright :)
18:06:44: <MithranArkanere> Do we want people diting when they can't have the game in front of them to check things twice? Or will it be good so people can make things like spellchecking while riding the bus? Or to check info while discussing with friends in a pub.
18:06:54: <dr_ishmael> the main goal in a mobile skin/frontend is to make it easily readable and quick to load
18:06:59: <Infinite> Neither do we. It would be something good to have in time, but we'd rather the more important additions.
18:07:17: <stephane> oki
18:07:23: <stephane> let's move on, 7 minutes overtime :)
18:07:25: <Dutch> If there would be a mobile version, the main function for it should be that it's readable
18:07:30: <MithranArkanere> At the end, the wiki of a game will be used mostly alt-tabing from the game itself.
18:07:48: <aspectacle> But if you have a device you don't need to alt tab from the game. :)
18:07:49: <Dutch> rather than another place to edit and make new additions to the wiki.
18:07:56: <Infinite> (You have 38 minutes left, before everyone runs to their tellies.)
18:07:57: <shew> and on that note, '/wiki' would be nice :)
18:08:08: <stephane> (Mithran: you have some good points but it feels like a bigger discussion is in order and already on the wiki)
18:08:10: <dr_ishmael> Mithran: you have to remember the "extended experience" that Anet is going to set up
18:08:12: <ee> taht exists
18:08:16: <stephane> END ITEM5: Mobile version of our wikis

Additional discussion

18:08:26: <stephane> so now I'll open the floor to questions, comments, etc
18:08:32: <stephane> new topics to discuss?
18:08:43: <Rudhraighe> wiki research time in game prior to release? without a nda!
18:09:02: <Infinite> Will these meetings become a frequent thing?
18:09:05: <Dutch> I'd love to apply for that :-).
18:09:09: <PLing> don't like that idea tbh, Rudhraighe
18:09:10: <stephane> (Pling: just saw you saying you on #gww about correcting my typos, please don't that was a joke ;)
18:09:17: <Sirrush> God no, Rudhraighe.
18:09:19: <PLing> ah ^^
18:09:29: <Dutch> But no, I don't think that's a good idea.
18:09:36: <stephane> Infinite: I don't know yet but I want to have more
18:09:56: <stephane> Rudhraight:: I don't understand
18:10:00: <dr_ishmael> i think having regularly-scheduled chats like this would be good, but maybe not "frequent" - monthly should be good for now
18:10:14: <dr_ishmael> (monthly only as a suggestion)
18:10:16: <Infinite> They could be bi-monthly, even.
18:10:20: <Tanetris> Semi-related to the mobile version (as there's a lot of talk of checking wiki on a second device while in game), do we have any details on how in-game integration is going to work?
18:10:20: <Dutch> Stephane, he wants to be able to document the game on the wiki, prior to release.
18:10:22: <Infinite> (Ah.)
18:10:28: <Rudhraighe> time for us to setup level 1-20 items data recepies and such prior to releae
18:10:42: <Sirrush> Why?
18:10:50: <stephane> (Tanetris coming back to that after the point Rudhraighe is making)
18:10:53: <MithranArkanere> In-game integratin should be somthing planned as early as possible, as you might need things like unque ID numbers for things.
18:11:16: <stephane> so If I understand correctly, the question is: should we start documenting things like crafting recipes and other details before the game releases?
18:11:20: <Infinite> It may be a comfort, but many wiki users have access to the 3-day headstart. Content can be double-checked before the actual release, and updated prior.
18:11:40: <Infinite> may not be*
18:11:42: <Sirrush> I believe he wants early access to the live servers in an effort to flesh out the wiki prior to release.
18:11:44: <dr_ishmael> he wants special access between the BWEs to get more information
18:12:00: <MithranArkanere> I see no harm in starting with stubs. The good thing about wikis is that it's relatively easy to delete and create things.
18:12:24: <Rudhraighe> to set a stable framework for new additions
18:12:24: <Dutch> I believe that, especially for the initial purchasers, the game should be fresh and not have it all laid out for them on a wiki, but that's my personal feelings.
18:12:27: <Infinite> The sentiment is something I can understand; there are a lot of topics we have trouble documenting accurately and efficiently, simply because we don't know how they work exactly.
18:12:27: <stephane> I tink this question is one that has to be decided by the wiki community, however if I can provide an opinion: people working on this have to be ready for changing stuff. As you could see from the changes between the 2 BWEs, we change stuff ^^
18:12:35: <Sirrush> Wanting the wiki to be fully populated before the game releases feels stupid imho.
18:12:46: <Sirrush> Completely takes away the magic of discovering a new game.
18:12:50: <stephane> IIRC GW2W.DE and GW2W.FR already started a bit of work on a few things
18:12:53: <Sirrush> But that's just me.
18:12:58: <MithranArkanere> Well, no one forces anyone to check the wiki.
18:13:15: <PLing> takes away part of the collaboration aspect too, since only certain people would have access to the game
18:13:15: <stephane> Sirrush: I'm not going to judge these decisions, unless I'm asked to
18:13:17: <shew> It's certainly not necessary, imo.
18:13:25: <MithranArkanere> But for those that do want to check things out, it's better to have it there.
18:13:27: <Sirrush> stephane, I'm not asking you to. ;)
18:13:29: <Binary_llama> Some people also really like to discover things before they go on the wiki
18:13:31: <stephane> I'll just say one thing though
18:13:33: <Infinite> We have plans to carry out documentation, but it'd be easier on us to have the right systems and templates in place before the edits strike.
18:13:35: <Binary_llama> the wiki would certainly fill in quickly after launch
18:13:39: <Dutch> I do know that people are scourging the dat files for information to put up, I'm not sure if that could be used (or wants to be used) for the wiki?
18:13:47: <Rudhraighe> i don't want to fully populate but to at least get lev 1-20 documented enough to build a scaffolding for new entries
18:14:03: <Sirrush> The current consensus is only using what can actgually be found in game, afaik.
18:14:05: <stephane> I think that our wiki would become more usable if there was away to put different levels of "spoilers" or something like that
18:14:13: <PLing> stephane, i think you've misunderstood a little: Rudhraighe wanted pre-launch, out-of-beta access for wiki editors, outside of any public access event
18:14:29: <stephane> Pling: if this is the case, then it's a no
18:14:36: <PLing> thought so :P
18:14:40: <Sirrush> Good
18:14:42: <Infinite> An alternative would be asking ArenaNet how the game works and what we should pay heed to whilst thinking up ways on how to document information.
18:14:56: <stephane> it'd be very complex to do
18:15:00: <Infinite> Where are the pitfalls a wiki might face with a dynamic game as GW2.
18:15:02: <stephane> we're busy developing the game
18:15:17: <stephane> ok I'd like to move on to wiki integration
18:15:28: <stephane> (feel free to create a follow up wiki discussion page on the previous topic)
18:16:15: <Dutch> A /wiki function is definitely a must. If there would be an ingame browser-like thing, like I believe I heard is in the plans? That would definitely be handy.
18:16:31: <Tilion> Is the GW2W going to be intergrated in game ala Guild Wars?
18:16:33: <ee> the command already works
18:16:33: <stephane> wiki integration is something that I've been working on behind the scenes and it is not at the moment something that's high in the priority list of the developers, since the focus is on the game not topics that are "peripheral"
18:16:42: <ee> it just opens an out-of-game browser window
18:16:48: <MithranArkanere> For me it would be great having a button on the top toolbar.
18:17:12: <MithranArkanere> Click on it, the cursor changes to a 'what's this?' icon. The next thing you click, gets checked in the wiki.
18:17:16: <stephane> just know that it's something that I'll keep pushing but it has to be put in perspective
18:17:25: <MithranArkanere> That could be anything. A panel, an item, a monster, an NPC, one of your skills...
18:17:29: <Rudhraighe> i believe the 'H' key is unassigned )
18:17:47: <Sirrush> H? Unassigned?
18:17:48: <aspectacle> Lol - that's the hero panel. :P
18:17:50: <shew> Are there any formatting changes that we need to make for the extended experience to access content?
18:17:50: <Infinite> It would not be detrimental to postpone wiki integration post-launch.
18:17:51: <Sirrush> lolwat
18:17:52: <stephane> we need a new "wiki" key on the GW2 keyboard :P
18:18:05: <Infinite> (I can't believe I just stated that.)
18:18:12: <zeeZ> (you can use [ for that)
18:18:13: <MithranArkanere> "Wiki this!"
18:18:15: <stephane> (joke indicator, please don't make this the frontpage of GW2 newspapers tomorrow :PPP)
18:18:25: <Tilion> Let's make custom keyboards then. :P
18:18:29: <MithranArkanere> There's lots of free keys. GW2 has much simpler controls.
18:18:36: <Dutch> I will, Stephane, mark my words. :)
18:18:39: <Dutch> (Kidding)
18:18:40: <stephane> Infinite: I actually kind of agree
18:18:52: <stephane> .../kickban Dutch
18:18:57: <stephane> ooops ;)
18:19:06: <Dutch> uhoh
18:19:07: <Infinite> Hand slipped across all those keys in order.
18:19:23: <stephane> so Tanetris it's not an answer but it's all I can say for the moment
18:19:40: <stephane> 19 minutes late, not bad :)
18:19:53: <stephane> any other hot topic?
18:20:04: <stephane> ok I have to move on to different work now
18:20:06: <Tilion> nope. Thanks for having us here.
18:20:13: <stephane> a BIG thank from me and ArenaNet
18:20:18: <Infinite> Like the match in half an hour? >.>
18:20:22: <stephane> Long live the wikis