Talk:Family trees

Naming sections

In lack of a better way to label the different families, I've used the surname of the oldest known member. This does lead to some families being labeled with some more unknown names: e.g. the Stegalkin family being labeled Cliffstrider instead (after her father). An alternative would be to name the families after the "most renowned" person: e.g. Whitebear and Stegalkin. But this would cause some challenge if one for example had to choose between Pyre Fierceshot and Kalla Scorchrazor.
As said, in the lack of a better way. The way I did it, at least it's consistent. Titus The Third 13:39, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Surprised you didn't include Jora's family since we have Jhavi Jorasdottir. Konig 06:58, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. I'll see what I can do about that. :) Titus The Third 20:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Marriner tree

Commodore Lawson Marriner is Cobiah's grandson. I don't understand anything about your code so I'll live that information here. Lawson seems so much older than Kerryn, I doubt they can be siblings.--93.19.65.36 23:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Wow. When I first read your post, I didn't understand a thing. Was 100% sure (or... obviously not) that I had added Lawson. I must have been drunk. Thanks for noticing! :) I've added him (+ a possible unknown second child of Cobiah) to the tree now. Titus The Third 18:24, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Lawson and Kerryn are siblings. Reason I say this is because Kerryn says her brother took over the family business, and Lawson says he's a Commodore just like his father and his grandfather (Cobiah). So the family business seems to be being Commodore. Kerryn's change in surname is likely due to being married or being a member of the Order if Whispers, and the latter can explain her seeming ditziness in her original dialogue (particularly her talking only about Cobiah buying the 'rock' and people thinking him insane). I won't edit it since this is Titus' pet project. And I wouldn't argue age being a factor since it is not impossible for siblings to be separated by 20+ years in age (both of my parents' families can attest to that) and even more so if they happen to be half siblings - this goes double since in Tyria, you have old sounding grandmothers without a single wrinkle, but the men can be as wrinkly as can be. So we can't really say Kerryn is as young as she appears. This makes more sense than assuming an unknown child of Cobiah when he and Isayeh were already old with Dane. Konig 06:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

The age gap (if judging by appearances) does seem to be huge between Kerryn and Lawson: but I think your logic is sound. "This makes more sense than assuming an unknown child of Cobiah". I agree with that, so I'll change the tree accordingly. :)

As for "I won't edit it since this is Titus' pet project". Haha :P I guess you're right. But the Wiki is and will of course forever be a community project, so don't be afraid to change things around. I would only be honored. And I'm really happy to see you're back commenting on "my" stuff (P.S.: see also). Warms my hearth :) Titus The Third 20:23, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi, it's "93.19.65.36" again. When we could ask Kerryn Deverol what she did (before LA got destroyed again), she said "The Deverols have been seafarers for as long as anyone can remember. Me, I prefer to stand on things that don't pitch and sway. So, my brother runs the family business, and I maintain the homestead." This makes it sound like Kerryn's brother is born a Deverol. I agree that Isaye (1198 - 1287 ApE) may have been too old to have a second child, but I find that assuming Kerryn Deverol is Lawson Marriner's little sister is... well, you see my point. On another hand, Isaye and Cobiah are buried on the "Deverol" Island. I hope ArenaNet could be clearer sometimes >< --Vilenia (talk) 14:56, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

You also forget that Kerryn states "When Grandaddy Cobiah and his contemporaries reclaimed Lion's Arch, this was just a slab of rock jutting from a flooded bay. He got it for almost nothing, and folks still thought he was crazy." There's only one Cobiah in the game. This means that Kerryn is either Lawson's sister, or cousin. Given it's unlikely for Cobiah and Isaye to have a second child, sister is far more likely. Deverol is likely just the name she married into, or Isaye's maiden name. The only other answer is that when Cobiah Marriner was alive there was a Cobiah Deverol alive. Konig 19:06, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I suppose the chances of the name being on the side of Dave's wife are too low. --Vilenia (talk) 00:29, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Thackeray tree

Those family connections are too speculative considering what little informations we have in the game. What Phil said ("He's my second cousin on my mother's side…twice removed") doesn't work with what is written on Gwen's grave ("great-grandmother") if their common ancestor is Gwen Thackeray.--93.19.65.36 23:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I noticed I had added one extra generation between Gwen and Logan, and made her his "great-great-grandmother". So I started adjusting the whole thing, and kinda figured out it would add up (relation-wise) if Keiran and Gwen had a third child.

However, after I made all that work (*sigh*), I started doing some math ... Take a look at the estimated dates I've highlighted in my sandbox version, the figures kinda speaks by themselves..

My conclusion is that the gravestone has to be wrong. It indicates that oth Gwen, her child, and her grandchild must all have mothered/fathered children at no less than the age of 70-80 years (yeah... right). So, the tree as it is now, is as close as possible it can be to the info given in-game... imho Titus The Third 22:42, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

During the BWE, Phil's surname was Thackery, and the dialogue the same as it is now, with his lines being obvious faking it to gain some creditation. His model has since been turned Elonian and his surname changed but the dialogue still gives a sense of "there's no actual traceable relation, just a shared name". Konig 06:57, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Hmm.. so you're saying that whether or not Phil is "a real Thackeray" could be (or is) debatable? That's pretty interesting :)

However, the discussion above is more about the relation (number of years/generations) between Gwen and Logan. The number of generations between Gwen and Phil is more logical in both cases (Gwen being Logan's great OR great-great grandmother). Titus The Third 20:05, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I've been trying to make a coherent family tree according to what Phil is saying (and considering the complicate relation, I can understand why he sounds like he does) and what was written on Gwen's Grave (the text has been changed since than, maybe I should update that page...). And damn it, this should be impossible with this 250 years gap... Phil must come from a cadet branch (if his story is true) and may be an indirect descendant of Kieran Thackeray... ANYWAY I believe ArenaNet realised how absurd those family ties are, and decided to replace "great-grandmother" with "ancestor". Considering this, the family tree would be more like :
→ Kieran Thackeray
→...→ unknown number of generations
→...→→ Phil's great-grand-father
→...→→→ Phil's great uncle
→...→→→→ Phils' mother's 1st cousin
→...→→→→→ Phil's 2nd cousin
→...→→→→→→ Phil's 2nd cousin once removed
→...→→→→→→→ Dylan Thackeray

→...→→→→→→→ Logan Thackeray

→...→→→ Phil's grand-father
→...→→→→ Phil's mother
→...→→→→→ Phil Thackeray
--Vilenia (talk) 16:21, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The reason for the change in text is due to the {{Lore discrepancy}} project. Anet took note of it and fixed a bunch of those things. But the articles haven't been updated yet. Konig 19:09, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Delaqua & Meade tree

The Delaquas of Shaemoor are growing into quite a large family it seems... Just to get it down, to be added soon - we have:

• The not-so-nice father.
• The worrisome mother: "sews dresses for a living", "still holding onto a very old grudge" (still alive, probably living somewhere around Shaemoor or Fort Salma?).
• 4 sisters: the older (Seraph) Belinda, the younger Marjory. Plus two married ones.

Titus The Third 20:48, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Wild-Eye_Miller dialogue suggests a Mai Trin connection possibly, but that's the only reference I've seen. I wouldn't discount it just because he's a beggar, either, as sometimes a strange character can disguise some pretty interesting truths. --75.17.145.160 17:30, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Nice fun fact there. Didn't know about that one. I agree that being a beggar doesn't discount his statement. However, all the other things he says does. It seems quite obvious that he's talking about some crazy theories. So with no other sources supporting his claim, I feel it's not worth putting on the main article here. Definately worth a mention here on the talk page though - so thanks for that! :) Titus 22:41, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Hiya, Just wanted to add some information here for- post Looking Back achievement. Elyse Delaqua and Mireille Delaqua can be spoken to in Arborstone after the achievement, a few little bits that might be useful here?

• Their family is based in Rurikton and is described as close by Elyse.
• Mireille took over running their family shop when their mother fell ill (shortly before Belinda's death.)
• Elyse is separated, her previous husband was called Claude. Described by Mireille as a "a piece of...He wasn't a good guy.'
• Elyse is raising their 8-year-old son Phillip (Delaqua?) by herself.
• Elyse describes their dad as "A big softy, once you get to know him" which is different from Marjory's "isn't nice like yours was."

Gwylen (talk) 04:25, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Also if you wanted a rough birth date for Kasmeers father, in S1 The Origins of Madness: A Moment's Peace (1326AE) she says he would have been Fourty-Five, so he was likely born 1281AE

Marjory Delaqua: Hey. What's wrong? You've been unusually quiet today.

Kasmeer Meade: (sigh) It's my father's birthday. He'd have been forty-five today.

Marjory Delaqua: I'm sorry. Do you want to talk about it?

Gwylen (talk) 11:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Expanding things

Are we happy with all of the trees expanding at once when you press the button, or would we rather it was specific to each tree? (easily changed) -Chieftain Alex 21:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Ehm, if it really is easily changed, I think it would be better to split for each specific tree. :) Titus The Third 21:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Sylvari tree?

As a reply to a comment I made on a WoodenPotatoes video, utakatasix asked if the Sylvari could be included. I made a sketch for it, but since there are no direct "family relations", it kinda becomes just a list of who's born in which cycle. And who's firstborn/secondborn, but there is already a list of that on Firstborn and Secondborn.
Idk. What do you think; are the Sylvari worthy of a family tree? Titus The Third 22:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It'd really be "Pale Tree -> Every sylvari but Malyck" since all sylvari come from the Pale Tree and they're all siblings (sans Malyck). So no point. Konig 01:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the sylvari tree actually is a tree. — snograt 01:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Lolz :D I really laughed when I saw your edit summary Snograt. Tried explaining what was so funny to my girlfriend, but she didn't get it :P Titus The Third 10:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Crystal dragon family tree has an elder dragon at the bottom

SPOILERS FOR SEASON 4

I think pretty much everyone understood that Aurene became an elder dragon. But I feel like the dialogue in Descent went over everyone's heads. Kralkatorrik can't possibly have been an elder dragon when he died, or the world would have ended right then and there. Additionally, this three line exchange:

Kralkatorrik: Your first words... I heard them.

Aurene: I'm not you.

Kralkatorrik: But you are of me. And soon I will be of you.

is Kralkatorrik literally saying to Aurene "I am your ancestor, and soon you will be my ancestor".

That is followed by

Kralkatorrik's Torment: SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!

Kralkatorrik: She is the first of her kind.

Which either means that Aurene is splitting out of the family tree into her own or that Aurene is moving to the head of the family tree.

Kralkatorrik's final line of dialogue confirms that it is the latter:

Kralkatorrik: Mother...

If Kralkatorrik's mother had existed prior to this fight, she would have been his elder, and therefore he could not have been an elder dragon. BenLubar (talk) 02:03, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

You're implying that Aurene became an Elder Dragon without replacing an Elder Dragon? That's not how it works from what we were told. Kralkatorrik was 100% an Elder Dragon when he died, and Aurene replaced him. Kralkatorrik's mother might have been an Elder Dragon, but it's unclear - perhaps Kralkatorrik became an Elder Dragon by replacing his "Mother", or perhaps he replaced someone else and his mother was, like Glint, just a dragon capable of becoming an Elder Dragon and never doing so.

"is Kralkatorrik literally saying to Aurene "I am your ancestor, and soon you will be my ancestor"." This is not what's being said. He is saying "you are of my bloodline, and soon my power will be in you."

"Which either means that Aurene is splitting out of the family tree into her own or that Aurene is moving to the head of the family tree." Nope, this is a reference to how Aurene can handle multiple types of magic. Normally, such would cause great pain and torment to those who have multiple types of magic within them, even Elder Dragons. But this isn't so for Aurene - the entire point of the conversation and Aurene managing Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic within Kralkatorrik is that while such magic causes pain and created "Kralkatorrik's Torment", there is no such pain or torment in Aurene. In Episode 5, Glint explains why this is in a bit of foreshadowing:

Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.

Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.

"If Kralkatorrik's mother had existed prior to this fight, she would have been his elder, and therefore he could not have been an elder dragon." I don't think you understand what "Elder Dragon" means in this context. An Elder Dragon isn't "the oldest dragon in the bloodline" or the like. It's a position connected to The All. Not every dragon we see can become Elder Dragons (for example, skyscales and wyverns aren't capable of such) but, in theory, any of Elder Dragon's bloodline or champions can eventually rise to become an Elder Dragon if given enough magic to connect to The All. Tequatl, after Zhaitan's death, is hinted at having been on its way to replace Zhaitan as an Elder Dragon but was killed canonically in S1 before it could.

BTW, the reason the world didn't end, is because Kralkatorrik's position as Elder Dragon was replaced. Because we had a replacement (Aurene), we were able to kill Kralkatorrik without the world ending. If we had killed an Elder Dragon without a replacement, then the world would have ended. Hence why we had to stop Balthazar. Ideally, we would find a scion / other replacement and find a way to make them replace Zhaitan or Mordremoth so we'd have a "buffer" of sorts before taking on another Elder Dragon. Konig (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Jormag and Primordus need to be added to the dragon family tree.

Jormag calls Aurene her "grandniece" In the dialogue after the snowden drifts dragon response mission (specifically the one with the champions story activated). Which make Jormag and Kralkatorrik siblings

Aurene: Jormag, may we speak?

Jormag: Anytime, grandniece. I told you, I so enjoy our talks.

Primordus because according to Taimi Jormag said that Jormag and Primordus are twins. Which by default makes Primordus and Kralkatorrik siblings.

ZianaSue (talk) 14:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Jormag also calls Aurene their "sister", which can be interpreted as being related via being Elder Dragons, there is literally nothing else confirming they are family, so no, they shouldn't be added to the Crystal Dragon tree. Also as pointed out by Konig, Jormag is a master manipulator and starts using "grandniece" when they were growing annoyed with Aurene's reluctance. ~Sime 15:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)