Talk:Condition Damage

Vulnerability

So for Vulnerability, would this lower the armor more or something? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.139.247.68 (talk).

As the name implies, Condition Damage increases condition damage, so vulnerability will not benefit from this since it has a fixed armor denial value of 1% per stack, therefore you will benefit more from Condition Duration (Expertise) if you want to stack Vulnerability. --Rapid Sausage 18:34, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Mechanics

Would love to have detail on the mechanics of this value, and how it is used by each condition. I don't see weakness causing 100 damage to peeps when applied, from 100, but perhaps that's how it works. Would 5 stacks of vulnerability do 500 damage? Would burning increase the rate of dot, the duration, or just slap on 100 extra damage when applied? 75.220.52.8 14:43, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Condition damage doesn't serve as a flat damage increase for conditions, but rather a value that is used in the calculation of condition damage; For example, Confusion damage is calculated as such 25+(0.5*player level)+(0.075*Condition Damage), while bleeding is calculated as 25+(0.5*player level)+(0.05*Condition Damage), so as you see, condition damage isn't a fixed amount of damage, it's a variable used in the formulas for conditions.

The real question though is, Is there a difference between Malice and Condition Damage?, from what i understand, 1 point in Malice gives 10 points of condition damage, while 1 point of condition damage (from armor) gives only 1 point of condition damage. Can someone shed some light on that? --Rapid Sausage 18:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Malice is the historical name for the Condition Damage statistic, with only a couple references to it left, like in Banner of Strength. I think when they removed those names (which was right before BWE1, i.e. the first time I was able to play the game), they also upscaled these stats by 10. Otherwise they're exactly the same. —Dr Ishmael 18:45, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Well that raises another question, does 1 point of condition damage serve as 10 points for the purposes of condition formulas' calculation?, or is it 1:1? --Rapid Sausage 18:48, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

It is 1:1. For example, the poison formula is Level + 0.1 * Condition Damage per second. If you are level 80 and have a total of 1000 condition damage, poison you inflict does 180 damage per second. — Gnarf ~ El Psy Congroo ~ 18:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

No, the condition formulas are exact. —Dr Ishmael 18:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Conditions Affected

So does it only affect bleeding, burning, confusion and poison? Gorribal 22:40, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Thats the $1000 question. Torrenal 23:08, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Nah, it probably at least triples the amount of damage that crippled does...  ;) Kormon Balser 23:14, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

When we have another chance to check, with q&a or in-game testing, can we be sure to also check Retaliation, just out of curiosity? I'm aware by all definitions it shouldn't be affected, but this seems like the most likely attribute to influence retaliation damage, if any. 184.76.11.55 01:50, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Dat Table

So I was annoyed that there was no central location for 'How much does Condition Damage help me?' Then I made a table. It's kind of ugly but looking up the format for it has ended my attention span. More importantly, I'm simply assuming the values on the individual condition pages are correct- I didn't go test these myself. I'd like to do a similar table for Healing Power, but that's going to take a lot of testing and I'm not up to it today. --Chompie 21:19, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Burning Damage

I did some calculations on burning for level 80 (not sure how and if level affects the multiplier)but it seems that 1 point in condition damage will give .2305~ points in burning damage per second. Is that a miscalculation on my part? or is 25% rounded up? Exhibit 18:56, 14 September 2012 (UTC)exhibit

What are the raw numbers you based this on? I can't tell if it's a miscalculation if you don't provide the source data. —Dr Ishmael 19:02, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Condition Damage By Proxy

Let's say a ranger and a warrior are adventuring together. The ranger places a Sun Spirit. The warrior attacks an enemy, and the spirit effect triggers, causing burning. Is the burn damage calculated based on the warrior's condition damage stat, or the ranger's? 96.39.120.89 15:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Most likely the ranger since it's the ranger's spirit that initiated the condition effect in the first place, in fact the tooltip for the spirit probably specifies some kind of damage value or duration, I haven't looked myself yet 71.68.238.112 20:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Condition Damage Coefficient

What is this coefficient that many but not all condition causing skills have and is it used instead of or in addition to a condition's normal modifiers, ie bleed .05, poison .1, burn .25...etc?130.215.173.67 17:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

It means for every point of condition damage, you get that much more damage from those conditions. Thus +20 condition damage will give you +1 bleed, +2 poison, and +5 burn damage per tick when you apply those conditions. --Thervold 17:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Condition damage table

I made a table with every point of condition damage from 0-2500 and at the top I list every 500 milestone mark. I know its possible to get up to ~2300ish condition damage in the game, but decided to throw in the rest just in case someone else knows of something I dont. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApbbAUHZTALUdGNpLXZSbi12aDk0RzlxQXNER01XWkE&output=html --68.226.52.217 21:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Fear

I've added Fear to the table as it can deal damage if you have Terror as a Necromancer. --2.55.127.166 06:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Nicely done. --Combatter 14:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Damage is recalculated every pulse based on the changing stats of hundreds of players?

The Notes section of the page states: Any condition damage that is currently affecting a target, will update per tick according to the source character's stats. For example, An Engineer may inflict Bleed with an Elixir Gun toolkit and then swap to a pair of +condition damage pistols in order to increase the damage over time, even if no further conditions are inflicted.

I find that extremely hard to believe, that every second, every condition pulse is recalculated based on the current stats of the source of the condition. If that is really the case, then it would explain a part of why the game has so many lag issues that they're forced to delay drawing characters because servers lack the computational power. I wonder if someone would be kind enough to verify this in PvE/PvP/WvW. (For example place a lengthy burn/poison/bleed, observe the damage, then switch gear.)

(Thinking about it, I don't even think it makes sense to do that. If I poison a knife and stab with it (not talking about the thief's venom mechanic, but a realistic situation), then I apply a stronger poison to it and sheathe it, would that make the person I stabbed before hurt more? If you're good with a knife and can cause your stabs to bleed more than the next guy, does that mean you can stab then move away and do something to your gear to make the previous wound bleed more?) --Alad 20:49, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I tested it myself a while back. Don't even have to change gear (which you can only do by weapon swapping in any case, since you'll be in combat), just give yourself  Might. Apply condition, stop attacking, apply might - ticking damage goes up. —Dr Ishmael 21:06, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Amazing. I'm wondering now where this calculation takes place. If in the client, then their protocol is a lot more vulnerable than I expected. (And I'm not astonished they can't do much about all the hacker bots teleporting across all maps for months now.) --Alad 21:45, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

it was also mentioned on the stacking page, bleeding damage from a specific source will only update if the source's stats was changed as like with might as previously mentioned. don't see anything wrong when its that simple. 67.233.98.18 00:12, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

No combat calculations take place in the client, I don't know why you'd even consider that. —Dr Ishmael 01:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Clock "edges" and Damage

I'm curious precisely when during an interval that condition damage hits. For example, if there is a 2s condition, does that result in 2 hits or 3 hits? If conditions hit once on their application, then it would be 3 (initial, 1s, 2s). If not, it would be 2 hits. And, do conditions each have their own unique start and end time or are the hits controlled by a "condition clock" that processes all active conditions each second?

For the later, if a condition lands when the "condition clock" is just about to tick, you would perhaps get an extra hit. This behavior would be more apparent with fractional durations. A 2.5s duration would give 3 hits roughly half the time in this case. Knowing this doesn't much matter for small hitting conditions like bleed and poison, but it might make a difference when building for burning and terror. Okuza (talk) 12:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm interested in this as well. I like to know more about the exact mechanics of the game. :) --Combatter (talk) 14:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Comparison Graph

Damage for condition damage values between 0 bis 2000 on level 80

Graph is done with Wolfram Alpha and can be easily adjusted. Colors of graphs are given right of plot, from top to bottom:

• Bleeding
• Burning
• Poison
• Torment
• Torment (when moving)

No profession specific bonuses ?

I got a necro and an ele with the exact same type of gear. Both have traits aimed at maxing condition damages. The Necro has ascended stuff, while the ele got the exotic version only. Yet my ele do a lot more condition damages right of the bat. I have been bogued by this for while and continue to curse Anet because of that. Is it a bug or something ? Is it intended ? Yseron - 109.212.34.90 22:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Which trait lines have you spent points in? If you went with Earth Magic for your elementalist but didn't spend anything in Curses on your necromancer, that would explain it. —Dr Ishmael 22:48, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Curses at max on the necro, whatever trait line improve condition damages on the ele maxed too. Yseron - 109.212.34.90 23:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

That would be Earth Magic, the one I linked. Do you have the Strength of Stone trait slotted on your ele? (10% of Toughness added to Condition Damage) There's no comparable trait for necro. —Dr Ishmael 23:38, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that would be it. Since this trait marked my mind (at least when i purchased it) it must be it. Yseron - 109.212.34.90 17:21, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Upgrade Components List

I added the missing upgrades, think I've got them all, might've missed something. Because of how the list was built, I added the category "Other". Imo this looks a bit messy, but I'm not sure how to fix it, or if a table wouldn't be better. Lacrisma.1540 (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Stats need updated

Apparently Base and Factor were changed for Confusion and Torment. SarielV 16:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Renegade rune needs to be added

Superior Rune of the Renegade needs to be added --Presac (talk) 11:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

What does breakpoint mean?

The explanation is really poor. What unit is it measured in? Is expertise or condi damage better below the breakpoint?

• It looks like some other editor borrowed my analysis for that. When your Condition Damage is below the breakpoint, a point of Condition Damage will cause more damage to be inflicted for that particular condition than a point of Expertise. When you have a Condition Damage score equal to or greater than the break point, a point of Expertise will cause more damage to be inflicted than a point of Condition Damage for that particular condition. Some of the conditions must have been updated in the meantime as my variables don't match for fear and confusion. In general, switching from a dedicated condi set like Dire or Sinister to Viper's should result in an increase in damage output, but something like a power Guardian looking to get more out of his Burning should have at least 655 Condition Damage before worrying about adding Expertise. SarielV 11:46, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Breakpoint?

The table of conditions and damage includes a column called Breakpoint. The footnote for this column says "The amount of Condition Damage at which one point of expertise will yield the same increase as one point of condition damage."

Can someone explain that? I can't understand the principle. Daddicus (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't really understand this myself, but I've had a go at showing some of the thought behind it on a heatmap.

Graph

If you zoom in you'll find:

• Vertical axis = Condition_Damage
• Horizontal axis = Expertise
• Each cell represents the Total_damage inflicted by a skill inflicting a (base duration) 10 second Bleeding condition.
• Yellow 45 degree lines = Lines of constant total attribute spend (i.e. anywhere on a yellow line will have the same total, such as "1500 Condition_Damage + 0 Expertise" and "1000 Condition_Damage + 500 Expertise"
• White cells = Bands of 500 Total_damage. Anywhere along the same band inflicts the same Total_damage.

Description

1. From any point on the heatmap, going down one cell increases the condition damage by 50, and going right instead increases Expertise by 50.
2. If you start at the top-left cell (0 Condition_Damage and 0 Expertise), you can see that adding 50 Condition_Damage gives you 30 extra Total_damage. If, instead, you add 50 Expertise, you only gain 7 Total_damage (That's a bad deal!)
   1. Therefore if you're starting out, it's better to invest more in Condition_Damage gear.
3. If you go down a few rows to 1000 Condition_Damage and 0 Expertise, you can see that adding 50 Condition_Damage gives you 30 extra Total_damage. If, instead, you add 50 Expertise, you gain 27 extra Total_damage. The difference between these has shrunk a lot.
4. If you now go down to row 1500 Condition_Damage and 0 Expertise you can see that adding 50 Condition_Damage is still giving you 30 extra Total_damage. But this time, adding 50 Expertise gives you 37 extra Total_damage.
5. There's a point between these, apparently 1133 based on the table, where you'd get 30 extra damage by adding either Condition_Damage or Expertise. This is the breakpoint.
   1. Summary: If your build inflicts mostly Bleeding (remember I only calculated it for Bleeding), and you've got more than 1133 Condition Damage (which you probably will have if you're using gear with Condition Damage as a major attribute), you want to maximise Expertise as far as possible.
   2. In reality since any ascended condition build is likely running with a primary condition damage of roughly 1381 (full Rabid) or 1173 (full Vipers) it'll be over the breakpoint and the build will be using expertise.

Obviously there's a limit to how much extra Condition duration you're allowed (up to +100%, either wholely through 1500 expertise or with item buffs too like Superior Sigil of Malice + utilities).

It might be helpful if we reword the description of the breakpoint so that its clear that beyond the "breakpoint" Condition Damage attribute value, it's better to invest in Expertise. -Chieftain Alex 00:20, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

THANK YOU!

I love it, and the change you made to the page. Thank you very much! Daddicus (talk) 05:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Minor remark to the graphic: The bleeding breakpoint of 1133,3 (periodic) could be best worked out with 33.3 (periodic) steps instead of 50 steps as above.

See also a wolfram alpha plot for bleeding, of course a spreadsheet provides more information.

"It might be helpful if we reword the description of the breakpoint so that its clear that beyond the "breakpoint" Condition Damage attribute value, it's better to invest in Expertise."

Well, that's not really true. If you have a certain amount of stats points that you can either distribute to Condition Damage or Expertise, then in order to gain the highest possible damage you have to distribute it in the following way:

1. If your the amount of stats point is less than the breakpoint then put everything into condition damage.
2. If your the amount of stats point is greater equal than the breakpoint then put the breakpoint amount into condition damage, the rest can be either put to condition damage or expertise, it doesn't matter total-damage-wise. That's what the breakpoint says: beyond the "breakpoint", it simply doesn't matter if you invest into Condition Damage or Expertise, the dealt damage while be the same (regarding total damage, but not burst damage with a certain time frame, e.g. in WvW where conditions could be removed).
   Edit: I haven't been precise here: the damage will be the same beyond the breakpoint if we spend x points in Condition Damage (total Condition Damage = breakpoint + x) and y point in Expertise or vice versa (y points in Condition Damage, x points in Expertise). However, the damage will be higher if the points are distributed more equally, with the highest damage at x = y points. (Edit time: 07:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC))

Please also note, that (as the Condition Damage#Calculating breakpoints describes) any bonus condition duration (e.g. runes or sigils) increases the breakpoint, e.g. having a +20% condition duration rune and and +10% condition duration sigil for bleeding the breakpoint is inceased from 1133.33 to 1133.33 + (20 + 10) * 15 = 1583. Due to the bonus duration, the condition damage becomes much more "worth" while expertise becomes "worth" less.

Furthermore, the breakpoint is a technically point of view that doesn't consider other aspects, e.g. attributes are bound to armor/weapon/trinket pieces with a fixed distribution rather than being freely available, does the condition duration exceed the 100% cap, is there a time frame (e.g. bosses living only for a certain amount of time), can conditions be removed,...

--Tolkyria (talk) 10:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

See User:Tolkyria/Condition Damage vs Expertise for wiki condition damage/expertise tables, requiring base damage coefficient and damage coefficient, allowing to set step size, min/max expertise/condition damage and most importantly allowing to adjust the row steps (condition damage) to the breakpoint instead to 0 (hence, we will get a symmetric table beyond the breakpoint).

--Tolkyria (talk) 18:41, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Quite an improvement on the charts I made ages ago :) Pretty cool. SarielV 10:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Not even remotely accurate any more

I don't know what the hell happened recently, but I can't even get a quarter of this damage any more. My condi is utterly useless. SarielV 03:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Uhh can you provide details? Because it's still working as expected for myself and others. --Dak393 (talk) 04:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Reinvestigating, I see the main problem was being mounted on my skyscale (probably only getting the base Condition Damage). But I'm still falling short by about 10% with burning. I see a lot of partial packets with poison, but that might be a quirk of the display. At any rate, not as bad as I was worried about, but still seems to be having problems. 174.103.146.229 06:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)